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Re: In response to bordem and generally having too much time to think.
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...More to the point - your example is like a really good chess player - who thinks that because they understand Chess - they understand all board games....

...I should have shoved those stones down his lungs and tore his eyes out... I totally would have killed him if he had grabbed a chess set...


I agree completely with what you have said here Mr. Weidman. It is one thing to believe in your abilities and quite another not to question them. I read on here some time ago that everything must have a crack in it, that's how the light gets in. Or something along those lines. If you believe our training is flawless then I think you're wrong. If you are good enough with what you do to keep the fight away from your weaknesses, then you don't need to fill those gaps. I'm not that good. And furthermore, I've got the time to do it.

There is a point here. It is my opinion that going to a BJJ school to test out your skills at THEIR dojo under THEIR rules is an excellent measure of just how well you understand our universal principles. I am a firm believer in losing in the dojo. Every time I lose in the dojo I thank the heavens for the opportunity to reveal my weaknesses in a safe setting. Because if that weakness remained unknown then it is just as possible that it could have been exposed when a person wanted to end my life. I find it to be a great confidence booster as well, to highlight just how well our training works.

The idea that the need to look elsewhere is driven by fear has its own validity. I believe with an absolute certainty, that there are things that I should know that I don't. Fear is an excellent friend in most cases....Fear is like pain with clairvoyance. It tells you that something WILL go wrong, given the right circumstances. So if you fear that there is a legitimate gap in your abilities, then go and fill it. It won't ruin your training.

The shooting analogy is perfect. Bujinkan budo taijutsu can teach you an excellent way to move in order to generally use the gun effectively....but it won't make you an excellent shot. There is knowledge specific to the thing(shooting) that you need to know to refine your abilities if you want to use a gun. Don't learn "gun" from an unarmed specialist and don't play "gun" if you haven't learned it. It is possible not to play "ground" but if you plan on playing "ground" then you should at least acknowledge that there are legitimate specialists out there for it. With that acknowledgment, it would be silly not to seek them out if you look to play that game. If you are confident that no grappler can hold you down and keep you on the ground, then don't learn it. I do not share that confidence.

That's just my opinion on the matter. I hope this thread stays alive, because I learn a lot about what my seniors think on matters like this.

Posted on: 2007/3/17 12:22
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Re: In response to bordem and generally having too much time to think.
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How about weakness. For instance:

-A person with a weakness of his form or intention and focus of movement may study Tai Chi Chuan for several months, long enough to understand it and apply it's principles to your taijutsu, improving the weakness.

-A person who wishes to improve their fluidity of movement and unpredictability may study Capoeira for some time to become more agile in combat.

-Different motions. One could find the coiling power in Ba Gua Zhang an interesting characteristic and wish to study it to add that to their method of movement.

Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is a very broad art. Arts like those mentioned focus on a characteristic, like power, intention, speed, or unpredictability. I don't see why people who are attracted to those characteristics shouldn't learn to incorperate them into their style. And what better way than to learn from those martial arts? I think cross-training for the right reasons is fine. If you don't like it, don't do it. No need to judge other peoples' way of training, mind your own training!

Posted on: 2007/3/17 12:54
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Re: In response to bordem and generally having too much time to think.
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Tenshin wrote:
How about weakness. For instance:

-A person with a weakness of his form or intention and focus of movement may study Tai Chi Chuan for several months, long enough to understand it and apply it's principles to your taijutsu, improving the weakness.

-A person who wishes to improve their fluidity of movement and unpredictability may study Capoeira for some time to become more agile in combat.

-Different motions. One could find the coiling power in Ba Gua Zhang an interesting characteristic and wish to study it to add that to their method of movement.


Study Budo Taijutsu long enough (diligently, under the right teachers, focusing on the principles from the various ryuha, etc. ad infinitum) and you will find/learn all these things you listed.

Posted on: 2007/3/17 13:49
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Re: In response to bordem and generally having too much time to think.
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benkyoka wrote:
...
Study Budo Taijutsu long enough (diligently, under the right teachers, focusing on the principles from the various ryuha, etc. ad infinitum) and you will find/learn all these things you listed.


This is the sort of thing I was talking about. What's wrong with going to a specialist to learn about a special thing?

A doctor certified in general medicine knows what cancer is and how to treat it. He doesn't treat it though, you go to a specialist for that....because when your life is on the line you go to the guy whose only job is the skill you need. Same thing with martial methods. The Bujinkan may incorporate all of the things listed, but if my teacher isn't a specialist in the skill that I want or feel that I need, I'll go to someone else for that specific thing.

You can argue that a student could lose focus on the core training in the Bujinkan if they sought out other instruction. But here's the question: If a person were of the aptitude that would allow his training to be ruined by a supplemental study of another martial method, could he really have understood his art in the first place? I say no.

Think of it like patchwork on a submarine. When there is a leak, they patch it up. It may have leaked because of a design flaw or because of damage to the ship but either way it needs to be fixed NOW. Redesign the ship later, patch it up now. Have a hole in your taijutsu? Patch it up with a supplement but keep your eye on the core training and learn a better design, so that you won't need that patch.

Posted on: 2007/3/17 14:46
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Re: In response to bordem and generally having too much time to think.
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Does one rip up his sheets to make a quilt?

Posted on: 2007/3/17 15:14
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Re: In response to bordem and generally having too much time to think.
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Shinoobie wrote:
Quote:

benkyoka wrote:
...
Study Budo Taijutsu long enough (diligently, under the right teachers, focusing on the principles from the various ryuha, etc. ad infinitum) and you will find/learn all these things you listed.


But here's the question: If a person were of the aptitude that would allow his training to be ruined by a supplemental study of another martial method, could he really have understood his art in the first place? I say no.


Ding! Ding! You just reiterated the point I made.

Posted on: 2007/3/17 15:52
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Re: In response to bordem and generally having too much time to think.
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benkyoka wrote:
Ding! Ding! You just reiterated the point I made.


Right. Your idea is: If you don't understand it, just wait.

Mr. Sked, if there is a leak in the boat you don't just sit there and wait until you can build a better boat. The better boat won't leak but that doesn't stop you from drowning now. I like to be as prepared as I can be...Your idea is as if you get in a fight today and encounter a thing you KNEW you weren't ready for and you say: "Man, try that on me again in five years and you'll get what's coming to you." Or: "As soon as I'm an expert, I won't have to worry about these problems."

I'll take the better boat any time but until I reach whatever epiphanies are required to get me to understand the next step in my Bujinkan taijutsu, I have to worry about the ship sinking first.

This doesn't apply fully here but there is merit to the saying "don't put all your eggs in one basket."

Posted on: 2007/3/17 17:31
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Re: In response to bordem and generally having too much time to think.
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I like boats. I enjoy time on the ocean. I have always wanted my own sailboat. My grandfather had the same dream and actually built his boat, which I got to help him with. He was quite the carpenter/craftsman. I would show up at his house after school and there would be lumber, and fasteners, and you-name-it all over the yard. I was still very young when this was going on. One day, gramps was putting the finishing touches on the hull (the first part), I started asking him how we were going to affix the sails and to what.
"Just wait. We don't need the sails just yet. We haven't got a boat to fasten them to. We will do things in the proper order".

Eventually we finished the hull. We started working the cabin next. I, in my impatience, starting asking about the sails again.
"Just wait. The sails come later. Let's get the cabin and controls hooked up and make sure they work first."

Eventually we put on the sails (this came last, by the way) and took the boat out for its maiden voyage. It was a beauty.

Quote:
Your idea is: If you don't understand it, just wait.
No, my idea is; 'Train Properly, Now' (tm).

Now, I get to be a jerk: If you aren't getting what you think you need from your instructor, why are you still there? If you aren't getting what you think you need in order to effectively defend yourself, then why are you still there?

Quote:
I'll take the better boat any time but until I reach whatever epiphanies are required to get me to understand the next step in my Bujinkan taijutsu, I have to worry about the ship sinking first.


Then why are you still there? You can go to the life raft and abandon your sinking boat. Do you think epiphanies are required to understand Bujinkan taijutsu? I thought it was just hard, diligent training (isshoukenmei!) under a proper instructor. I don't blame you for wanting to fix the boat if it's sinking. But why try to salvage a sinking ship, get one that won't sink before you go out on the sea. Man, I hate analogies.

To reference earlier in the thread, if you need to study capoiera to become more agile, you're not studying budo taijutsu properly. If you need to study tai chi to focus your intention, you're not studying budo taijutsu properly. If you need to study Bagua to add/develop power, you're not studying budo taijutsu properly.

I thought this was a Budo taijutsu forum...

Posted on: 2007/3/17 17:56
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Re: In response to bordem and generally having too much time to think.
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About the "name of the bird"... It comes second to the bird itself, yes, but if one wants the whole picture then the name needs to be know... and understood, too... as sometimes it gives some deeper info on the bird itself, too!

Especially if one is into biol... tradition itself.

PS. on learning everything... if there is something one feels is missing, why not ask one's teacher? Instead of going looking for it in all the other places? You might be going fishing further than the sea.... (hmm, sound better in Finnish )...

Posted on: 2007/3/17 18:58
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Re: In response to bordem and generally having too much time to think.
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I'm studying Shiatsu Therapy, and part of our requirement happens to be a Tai Chi program. Since I've been learning this, I've been applying some of the priciples to Taijutsu, and it's really helped refine my flow through the movements.

One of my biggest problems to overcome since I began training in the bujinkan was being too tense. Tai Chi, without a doubt played the biggest part in overcoming this trial of mine. Training this didn't take any time away from training my taijutsu, and it has done anything but hurt my taijutsu, so I can't see a reason why these studies have a negetive effect.

If you dedicate yourself to taijutsu, that should be your foundation, your focus. But to take principles from other arts can only make you stronger. The only problem with cross-training is trying to dedicate yourself to 2 different arts, then it's counter-productive in a way. I'm dedicated to Taijutsu, Tai Chi exists in my life to serve my Taijutsu, I take what I can use from it, and reject everything else. I even take principles from my shiatsu and apply them to taijutsu.

So what's wrong with that?

Posted on: 2007/3/18 0:58
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