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Re: Knowledge Big K
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What fun!

Thanks Pete. You're clearly one heckuva guy. You're insults prove just how nice you really are. Seriously though, good for you for devoting so much of your time to battling ignorance, but the kind of prejudice you and Robert seem to share is what put me on the defensive. It's exactly why I wanted to bash the elitism that said institutions propagate. No one can say anything valid unless they are accredited by the powers that be. Can you offer everyone a philisophical position that can be substantiated? Isn't Truth by its nature only substantiated through action and one's individual subjective experience? Isn't this kind of substantiation dismissed as anecdotal evidence and therefore doesn't count to the typical empiricist. Hasn't Hatsumi called Takamatsu a philosopher? You are in error in assuming that I have ever considered zen something that could be understood simply by reading about it. I know zen because I experience it ! What I was reading the other day resonated with me and seemed perfectly fitting for this...this whatever you wish to call it. Your attack is weak. Your ego strong.

In my dojo we call what I gather that people are referring to with the word "it", The Mode. As I understand it, Robert , you have passed your godan test, so I'm sure you've experienced "it" plenty. How would you describe it?

This section of the forum is naturally gonna breed controversy. Since you might be the only one with a college degree in philosophy we might have to work together to come up with some language that we can employ that we can agree on for us to move foward. Are you willing to attempt that? Could be interesting. People may have experiences of value everyone participating in this section, but lack the language that you have been schooled in. Hopefully we can meet in the middle and have some constructive debate or discussion.

Peace,

Ayam

Posted on: 2007/5/1 12:35
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Re: Knowledge Big K
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I'll refrain from getting involved in the thread as I try to remain impartial to the views such that discussion can continue without the moderator "taking sides"...

I refer to "it" as The Mode - a state of consciousness that defies explanation and also defense in such forums. People can argue of techniques, philosophies, or whatever - in the end its foolish for any one person to believe they have the final answer.

Training earnestly will continually reveal challenges through intrapersonal dynamics that are unique to each person - learning from these and continually moving forward are important. As important is interpersonal aspect, as many people need the collaborative environment with others to act as the catalyst for the intrapersonal developments.

so, if we view this forum as much as a part of the dojo, and we treat eachother with as much respect here as we do on the mat, we will expand the envelop of experience within which we are aware of how universe reveals itself.

Posted on: 2007/5/1 13:58
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Re: Knowledge Big K
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Quote:

AYAM1 wrote:
Isn't Truth by its nature only substantiated through action and one's individual subjective experience?


I'm not going to engage in the rest of this email battle but reading through I did feel I had to comment on the above statement. Truth is NOT substantiated through subjective experience! Truth's nature is that which is common to all things, all people, hence why it is called "truth"! Hence it cannot be substantiated through the individualised consciousness. If it is a subjective experience then its not an experience common to all, and thus only "my truth" as experienced/expressed by that person. Truth (with a capital T) is that which is shared by all people, all things, all of existance and is only verified through objective experience, through experiencing enlightenment (the mind that is not subjective), no-mind, the One-view.

To clarify on a finer point though, Truth can be then interpreted by the individualised consciousness as a means to understand it. In this sense the individualised consciousness it used as a tool of examination to understand truth. But one should always be aware this is a mental and subjective investigation of Truth, and not Truth itself. If truth is substantiated through one's individal subjective experience it would be in that person's best interests to regard that "truth" as an "opinion" and to meditate more.

I'm sorry if this post comes across harsh but I've read several comments from you AYAM1 that indicate such views. I can only say strongly that those views are wrong and will be limiting your development spiritually. If you are serious about your development then hopefully you'll begin to question such views because it in and of itself is not Truth, it is your own subjective view. Think about it please.

Posted on: 2007/5/1 14:01
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Re: Knowledge Big K
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Okay. You misunderstand me Dean. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. What I wanted to say is that knowledge(which I define as information) of Truth is substantiated through one's own testing or application of it in their own subjective sphere of experience. We all experience this one objective Truth through our subjective personal pov don't we? How else do we know it? Of course Truth simply is and doesn't need substantiating. Your second paragraph I agree with. You haven't clarified anything for me. You've just made assumptions about how I think that are erroneous. This could be my fault for not expressing myself perfectly.

Peace,

Ayam
Eddie (milk name)

Posted on: 2007/5/1 14:24
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Re: Knowledge Big K
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The main difference with discussing "it" as opposed to discussing knowledge big K is most people can hide behind vague terms, in epistemology you can't. But, I was really only concerned with Knowledge in general, not something connected with the Bujinkan directly - only indirectly. But, It can't be done on a Martial arts forum... People want thier spirtualism with thier martial arts and they often call it a philosophy.


Here is something to think about as well, people called Hitler a philosopher, too. Just because one is called something doesn't make it so. What G.W. decrees doesn't make it true either... i.e. WMDs in Iraq. Some people call G.W. Bush, a bright man, others call him stupid. So, he either is or isn't, that is why we have objective philosophy to reject the subjective non-sense.

"Like I'm OK your OK, we all are OK, and Being a Good Person is the most important thing for Rank" - note a side issue brewing - this kind of stuff is subjective, and messy leading to all sorts of problems.

But, enough of this I already planted the seeds.

Harshness and crassness is a part of Budo culture it should be welcomed as a friendly affair, most people take things far to seriously to enjoy it.

Posted on: 2007/5/1 14:26
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Re: Knowledge Big K
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Quote:

Okay. You misunderstand me Dean. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. What I wanted to say is that knowledge(which I define as information) of Truth is substantiated through one's own testing or application of it in their own subjective sphere of experience. We all experience this one objective Truth through our subjective personal pov don't we? How else do we know it? Of course Truth simply is and doesn't need substantiating. Your second paragraph I agree with. You haven't clarified anything for me. You've just made assumptions about how I think that are erroneous. This could be my fault for not expressing myself perfectly.

Peace,

Ayam
Eddie (milk name)



You can't experience the truth, truth is not an experience.

No one holds the view that knowledge is information, well at least those that work in epistemology. Knowledge is defined today as a true justified belief without defeators, only the particulars are to be worked out. You want to call it information fine...

Is the statement, "I know there are no such things as round squares", or "Did we have knowledge that there was WMD in Iraq?" Look at these questions carefully to see what the problem is with using knowledge as being defined as information.

Again the truth is not an experience, try to experience the number 1. Or experience, 5+7=12. This is the coloring of those that try to find meaning in everything around them, sometimes things are just there.

Everyone seems to mix thier religion with thier philosophy...

Careful
Sometimes Gods and Demons are difficult to tell apart. :) If of course anyone can have a true justified belief without defeators for the existence of such things.

The funny thing about talking about things like that is you can't argue about it in any meaningful way. It's like arguing who is stronger, Superman, or Goku (from Dragonball Z

Posted on: 2007/5/1 15:38
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Re: Knowledge Big K
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http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/wisdom/
Here is a nifty article on wisdom :) I don't 100 percent agree but at least someone is trying it.

Other problems: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justep-intext/


Man sorry for the typos. I seem to always make the ie ei typo. Sorry...

Posted on: 2007/5/1 16:32
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Re: Knowledge Big K
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Quote:

AYAM1 wrote:
Okay. You misunderstand me Dean. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. What I wanted to say is that knowledge(which I define as information) of Truth is substantiated through one's own testing or application of it in their own subjective sphere of experience.


Okay, then that is fine. As I state in my second paragraph from my last post "In this sense the individualised consciousness it used as a tool of examination to understand truth. But one should always be aware this is a mental and subjective investigation of Truth, and not Truth itself." If you forget this premise then you've fallen into the mental trap of the individualised consciousness. Substantiated though is a bad word to use. Even if you are substantiating "information/knowledge about Truth" then its really still just an opinion based on your individualised consciousness and thus not Truth itself, thus all you're really substantiating is your own thoughts about Truth. Again if you forget the premise I've stated, then the knowledge you've substantiated will be misguided. Its a very slippery trail.

Quote:
We all experience this one objective Truth through our subjective personal pov don't we?


NO! Point blank, flat out ... no! I'm not saying that to be harsh, I'm saying that to be direct. This is a very incorrect view and I really want you to get this point. If there is the experience of Truth then that is all there is. Its not experienced through our personal POV. Its only later that we then consider and think upon it from a personal POV. As soon as you are viewing subjectively you've lost it. Re-read your own sentence here again, does it even make sense? How can one view The "Objective Truth" subjectively anyway? Once you are viewing subjectively you are really only viewing a memory of Truth, then its becomes a individualised experience. If you forget this then you're in all sorts of trouble.

Quote:
How else do we know it? Of course Truth simply is and doesn't need substantiating. Your second paragraph I agree with. You haven't clarified anything for me. You've just made assumptions about how I think that are erroneous. This could be my fault for not expressing myself perfectly.


Yes, I don't think you are expressing yourself very well but that leads me to wonder why. Its like koans I discussed earlier in this thread, a students answers give you some idea of their development. Knowledge and information about truth is the same. How a person expresses their ideas about Truth reflects their insight to truth. I am concerned about how you express yourself sometimes, to be perfectly honest, which leads me to think you may be misleading yourself. I can only implore you to re-question some of these statements (like the one above) that you hold as truth.

Maybe it would be worth your while to consider the question "Can Truth be experienced without the subjective personal POV, without individualised consciousness?" But don't then examine this question with your current state-of-mind, as you'll quickly answer no. The answer to this question is actually "YES!" but to substantiate it you have to go and and experience it and that probably won't be possible with your current state-of-mind. That then begs the question, how can this be experienced? If you follow that trail you'll evetually find the Truth we speak of. Good luck!

Posted on: 2007/5/1 16:40
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Re: Knowledge Big K
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Mr. Robertson.
You are correct, I am a "heckuva guy" and I do have a healthy ego earned through years of hard physical and intellectual struggle (read: a functional adult). I was operating under the good faith assumption that you might be too. Was I incorrect?

What concerns me is that you still haven't made the connection between the negative responses to some of your statements and the importance of a little thing we in the realty definition biz like to call "consensus". You just dig in and continue to resort to calorie free rambling.

Hint: It's basic and important enough a concept that it belongs in each participant's intellectual framework in order to discuss things like the nature of knowledge.

One skill often attributed to ninja (besides the nonsense you've described) is the ability to read the text and the subtext of a situation (geography/weather/politics/with bacon?/etc.)in order to accurately assess how it is developing. Based on my comments, how do you think you are doing in this area?

Posted on: 2007/5/2 2:23
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Re: Knowledge Big K
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I attempted to lock this thread for a bit as I was hoping that people could take a step back from it for a few days and cool off.

Ill re lock it now.

The problem I see here is a lot of pomposity and each person attacking the perspectives of others as if their perspective is better than another without actually making their own foundation solid. There is a lot of talk about incongruous terms - but poor attempt at each defining their terms without it turning into personal insults.

Robert, as far as your "I'm ok, you're ok, etc.." quote, I assume you were referring to what I wrote, and no that was not what I was saying at all.

I wasn't at all saying that we should "all just get along" I was saying that each person should look at their posts and not be an asshole. I see a lot of assholes in this thread and I don't care about peoples rank, schooling or *where* they train.

I specifically stated that we should show the same level of respect in this board as we do on the mat/in the dojo.

If the personal attacks here are indicative of how people train I think few people in here would want to train together.

Don't read more into that than I am writing either.

Lets take a few days away from this thread.

Posted on: 2007/5/2 10:30
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