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Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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I read and heard that Ueshiba sensei trained Kukishin Ryu and then formed Kuki Aiki from that point. The Aikidokas do not accept it though. Does any one has a proof about that or a documentation?

Posted on: 2007/7/6 17:05
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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Quote:

Toruko-jin wrote:
I read and heard that Ueshiba sensei trained Kukishin Ryu and then formed Kuki Aiki from that point. The Aikidokas do not accept it though. Does any one has a proof about that or a documentation?


Was the source for this information ---> http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/impact3_e.htm ??

Posted on: 2007/7/7 0:37
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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Yes, this is the main Kukishin Ryu web page.I need this info. to forward to an Aikidoka who claims that he has not. I need more solid info. if possible. I know that Soke said this is true and we believe soke but not everybody wants to believe this I think.Especially Aikido guys do not like this, at least in Turkiye.

Posted on: 2007/7/7 2:52
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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Acording to Abundant Peace: The Biography of Morihei ueshiba, Founder of Aikido" written by John Stevens (1987, Shambala Publications) Ueshiba definitely studied Kukishin Ryu. Quoting from a quote (always a bad thing) "Around age forty-two Morihei seems to have secluded himself tin the mountains of Kumano and practiced Kukishin Ryu..."

I have that quote but no reference unfortunately - also there is a photo of Ueshiba and Kuki Takaharou from 1964 accompanying it - this is all contained in a copy of the Musubi Shadows of Iga Society Journal from 1987 (Vol. 11 No. 6)

So my suggestion is to check out that book by Stevens.

Posted on: 2007/7/7 16:18
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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Quote:

Balon wrote:
"Around age forty-two Morihei seems to have secluded himself tin the mountains of Kumano and practiced Kukishin Ryu..."

may not be very solid...

EDIT was my 1000th message... some would say I need a life but a lovely wife and two great kids is quite lively enough

Posted on: 2007/7/7 16:53
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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I admit - it is based on almost circumstantial evidence that he studied Kukishin Ryu at this point. Its a common question so Im surprised no one has a solid answer compiled for it yet.

Short of tracking down a dojo attendance record, or getting an official statement from the Aikido hombu - I would say the search for proof might be a proverbial haystack searching exercise where no magnets are allowed.


Even the picture I referred too is definitely Ueshiba but the other guy could be anyone in a hakama standing by a wall - my hope is that John Stevens book has a more concrete caption or reference based around that photo in the back of his book that will help track down a more definitive piece of evidence.

Posted on: 2007/7/7 17:06
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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Quote:

Balon wrote:
Even the picture I referred too is definitely Ueshiba but the other guy could be anyone in a hakama standing by a wall - my hope is that John Stevens book has a more concrete caption or reference based around that photo in the back of his book that will help track down a more definitive piece of evidence.


That picture is said to be true but the claim is that the kuki family was more into spiritualism than Budo and that is why Ueshiba was there, to learn religious knowledge.
I will try to find the book, thanks.
Anyone who wants to add more?

Posted on: 2007/7/7 18:00
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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Hi,

let me just add the following, from my direct experience:
even if Ueshiba-sama knew the kukishin art, he does not seem to have incorporated the feeling directly into the aikido art. So the information whether or not he studied kukishin is almost irrelevant for the akikidoka, IMHO. Ueshiba O-Sensei ecided not to put any htings he knew into aikido "so that people do not have to study that hard as he did"...

My experience: I had a privilege to study in the Iwama-style Dojo in Mountain View, CA, for a few years under Bill Witt Shihan. Bill Witt is great and one of the most dedicated, old time students of the late Morihiro Saito Shihan. Saito Shihan was the closest student and personal assistant of Ueshiba-sama since after the II World War up to the end (http://www.saitosensei.com/). He learned all he knew about budo from Ueshiba Sensei. Now, it seems reasonable to assume that not all Saito Sensei learned is aikido, he was for example excelent at shuriken jutsu (http://www.secrets-of-shuriken.com.au/mythology.htm) and he has freedom and natural ability for both improvising weapons and using hidden weapons.

This makes you think what Ueashiba-sama really knew... There are also reports of Ueashiba students about Ueshiba-sama using ninjutsu to move his body quickly to a safe place ("(..) leaped like a ninja" from the book "the art of Peace").

...but Ueshiba O-Sensei decided not to use those things (and other skills form kobudo) as a part of the aikido art/spiritual path.... so this is irrelevant to a dedicated aikido practitioner;

My personal attitude and advice to the buyu from Turkey: do not bother aikidoka with the ninpo stuff too much: their art and knowledge system is different and if they are happy with this - let it be!

'nuff said

peace
Mariusz

Posted on: 2007/7/9 3:24
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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I also read somewhere that the trainings with Ueshiba was totally different in Tokyo than it was in Iwama. In Iwama he taught all kinds of weapons, and in Tokyo mostly unarmed defenses. If I'm not wrong all the big Aikido organizations is originally from Tokyo.

No need to try to prove to the Aikidoka that their founder also learned from our school... if he did? Anyway who cares really, and if... why?

Posted on: 2007/7/9 3:46
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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Thank you all for information and bringing different aspects to the question.Will help a lot.

Posted on: 2007/7/9 3:53
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