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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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Some of the jojutsu in aikido has reminded me of what I have seen of kukishin bojutsu (little tidbits), but other than that, nothing of aikido strikes me as being very kukishin ryu-like.

I would like to add that aikidoka also react very strongly against notions that their art is beholden to daito ryu aikijutsu. Without having trained in it, many claim aikido is much more advanced. Personally I find that notion to be just a bit ridiculous. Perhaps Ueshiba's budo was more advanced, but I doubt that most aikidoka have sufficiently advanced budo to make that claim.

I have sometimes looked at the growth and development of aikido and wonder if the Bujinkan may one day slide down a similar slippery slope. I don't lose a lot of sleep over it, but the thought has crossed my mind.

Posted on: 2007/7/9 12:05
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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There is some information about possible connections between Kukishin-ryu and Aikido in Wolfgang Ettig's biography about Takamatsu Toshitsugu-sensei:

http://www.takamatsu-sensei.info

According to the book, Ueshiba-sensei had some contact with the Kuki family, which seemed to be primarily concerned with religious activities.

I believe Mr. Ettig came to a similar conclusion as many here; namely, that if Ueshiba-sensei did in fact train with Takamatsu-sensei (they almost certainly met on a number of occasions), he didn't incorporate much that is recognizable from Kukishin-ryu into his Aikido.

Posted on: 2007/7/10 18:52
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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Yipes, I just saw this on Ben Jones' blog:

http://www.japanesetranslations.co.uk/bujinkan/news.htm

Book on Takamatsu Sensei
Various people have asked about a book on Takamatsu Sensei that has been published in German and English and is apparently being prepared in Spanish. This book has NOT been approved by Hatsumi Sensei - in fact he suggested to the author that it was a bad idea to publish it - and Sōke has commented that he suspects much of the content will be inaccurate. Hence it is not recommended.

Posted on: 2007/7/10 21:28
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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A very good friend & Aikidoka who studied with Koichi Tohei, said that he did infact base much of the jo waza upon what he gained studying kukishin ryu. I believe he said during the 1920s

Posted on: 2007/7/11 16:23
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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Where Ueshiba sensei got his jo techniques from is debated. Most people claim it does not come from any jo school. He often performed his exercises with a short spear (nuboko), the training version of this weapon is pretty much a jo which is sharpened in one end... Among theories of backgrounds to aiki-jo is bayonet training in the army (jukenjutsu), Hozoin Ryu (spear) and indeed Kukushin Ryu. Here's two articles by Ellis Amdur on the subject.

A Unified Field Theory — Aiki and Weapons. PART V — The Influence of Spear Technique Upon Stave and Stick (mainly on the Hozoin theory)
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=1932

A Unified Field Theory — Aiki and Weapons. Part VIII — The Solo Jo Form (largely on the Kukishin theory)
http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=2384


You really shouldn't expect the aikidoists you may know to be very interested in these things, or to know very much about them. An interest in the origins of technique kind of goes with training in the Bujinkan, but not so in aikido.

Posted on: 2011/4/6 9:40
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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This whole thing is a bit pointless, all these masters took from each other and put their "spin" on it. To think otherwise is to be naive. Sensei once told me that Ueshima Morihei created Akido from some written techniques that Takamatsu gave him. I do trust that source but again why be concerned? What is most important is that what you learn works for YOU! Each person must develop enough understanding of movement to be able to know if a "technique" will work. Or you can be a historian basing your information on sources that can't be confirmed. I prefer to spend my time on what is now and works now.

Posted on: 2011/4/6 19:07
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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For the average Bujinkan member without an aikido background the topic is probably not that vital. On that I must agree. Most aikido black belts probably don't even know about Takeda Sokaku's Daito Ryu, which is widely accepted as the main technical roots of aikido. I suppose the average Bujinkanist should be even less interested.

OTOH we spend our energy on many non vital things, such as going to the movies or reading books about ancient Egypt, just because we find it fun and interesting. I didn't start this thread... if I wish to discuss aikido I go to Aikiweb, but now the thread was here and for those who happen to be interested, for whatever reason, I recommend Ellis Amdur as a complement to what has already been posted in this thread.

Posted on: 2011/4/6 19:48
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Hanna Bjork

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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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I agree with Hanna's recommendation of Ellis Amdur's articles. For those who want more, definitely check out his book, Hidden in Plain Sight: Tracing the Origins of Ueshiba Morihei's Power - http://www.edgework.info/buy.html
It's a great look at the history of Aiki within the Japanese ryu-ha culminating with Takeda Sokaku and Ueshiba Morihei.
Oh, and it also has his latest reseach on Ueshiba and Kukishin Ryu... :)

Posted on: 2011/4/6 20:56
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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JonHaas, did you find any major differences in the book compared with the old Aikido Journal articles? I've had the book on my shelf for a couple of weeks, but not begun reading it yet.

Posted on: 2011/4/10 5:43
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Hanna Bjork

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Dorothy Parker
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Re: Did Ueshiba Sensei train Kukishinden Ryu?
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In regards to Ueshiba and Kukishin Ryu, not really, no. But his tracing of aiki, or internal power, within the Japanese arts is pretty fascinating. Especially since you realize that there are solid training methods behind the legends of Ueshiba and Takeda's martial prowess. Take the book off your shelf and give it a read - you'll enjoy it! :)

Jon

Posted on: 2011/4/10 12:53
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