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Re: The "kata collector" label
Permanent Village Fixture
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“the kata where meant for children who started learning the schools at the age of 8 and where expect to be battle field ready at the age of 15.”


Funnily enough, I've heard Arnaud say this in person at Hombu; on the flip side I've heard Kacem Zhoughari say that the ryuha in the Bujinkan were all meant for already-experienced warriors, not for training youngsters.

hmmmmmm.....whom to believe......

Posted on: 2007/7/21 2:31
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......Samuel Zavaletta

Please be careful not to have preconceptions, and to always remember the idea of truth-and-falsehood.
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Re: The "kata collector" label
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Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
It presumes that YOUR understanding and experience exceeds that of Arnaud.


No. It doesn't. I don't have to have more experience and more understanding to pass judgment on a single (rediculous) statement.

If someone says that the sky is green, you don't have to be older or wiser to disagree with them.

Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
I think Arnaud expressed it quite well and would agree with his statement.


I am amazed that you would agree with something so profoundly ignorant as well.

Two 15th Dans who don't seem to understand the complexity of our art's densho... sad really.

Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
I also recognize that we all talk from the space of understanding where we now are and hopefully are progressing with our learning. When you get to his level of experience and skill, THEN tell us your opinion. Of course this is just my opinion.


This is such a load of crap Ed. In 15 years - you will still be older than I am. And you will throw the same crap at me then. This will go on and on until one of us dies or quits.

This is a rather pathetic way for you to dodge the issues that I raise by throwing the experience card on the table. Instead of dealing with what I say - you dismiss it because you are older.

or was that wiser.

or ... something.

-Daniel

Posted on: 2007/7/21 3:48
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PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC!!!!
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My friends, please can we keep this constructive and not let things turn into an ugly mud slinging contest again?

My observation is that soundbytes, snips and such are often used out of context or intent from which they were originally spoken or written. It would be far better to address concern with the one who originally said it (i.e. Arnaud), since anything else is just speculation, hearsay and the interpretation of others.

Waiter, more wine!

Thanks!

Posted on: 2007/7/21 11:55
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Darren Dumas

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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Re: PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC!!!!
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Quote:

Darren wrote:
...My observation is that soundbytes, snips and such are often used out of context or intent from which they were originally spoken or written.


True. I think I alluded to such in my post.

Quote:

Darren wrote:
It would be far better to address concern with the one who originally said it (i.e. Arnaud), since anything else is just speculation, hearsay and the interpretation of others.


Ed has decided to ENDORSE the ridiculous (at face value) statement - so responding to his statements isn't speculative - nor hearsay. He is a regular contributor on this board - so he had/has ample opportunity to "clear up" what he said - if, indeed, there is anything to clear up (I suspect he meant what he said - so my assessment of his position stands as well).

Don't worry... I will let it go...

-Daniel

Posted on: 2007/7/21 12:33
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Re: The "kata collector" label
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so sirs, what are the kata for?

Posted on: 2007/7/21 12:44
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Griff Lockfield

"Don't ask me. I need time to practice rather than answering to it." - Harada Masanori

just playing the ONI's advocate!
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Re: The "kata collector" label
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To say the sky is green is in NO way making the same type of statement as was made on the value of kata. Where in our training do we begin learning principles? I'd say from the very start. Yes, it takes awhile before these principles begin to sink in to the place where we can use them, but they get presented very early in our training. Now I will again make the statement that the purpose of kata is to TEACH PRINCIPLES!!! That is its purpose. If it were not why does Sensei have his shihan go to the scrolls and work out the written kata to demonstrate? They must because they have not felt it important to memorize that kata either. It is a teaching tool only! Then Sensei gives demonstration after demonstration that ONLY relate to the kata through the principles. What other conclusion can one draw? That the kata are the true gold??? Please, that is a total lack of understanding of what this art can do and is! Daniel I "play the experience card" because you refuse to even recognize that you can be mistaken and in many ways young man you are. I truly hope you do eventually learn and hope you don't lead too many people astray by your arrogance. Making the judgement you made on Arnaud's statement is nothing short of arrogance. Now I will not honor your lack of understanding on this with any other comment.

Posted on: 2007/7/21 14:32
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Ed Martin aka Papa-san
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Re: The "kata collector" label
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Ed,

I have no dog in this fight but I would like to play devil's advocate for a second if you don't mind.

You state that Daniel's judgement regarding what Arnaud supposedly said is pure arrogance. Couldn't the same be said for the statement in question though? When I read it the first thought I had was "Wow, how arrogant..."

Posted on: 2007/7/21 14:50
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Re: The "kata collector" label
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Hello,

I would like to make some comments because I almost never do. I also think this is a really interesting topic despite some of the bickering. Going back to another set of comments Mr. Mueller made about how someone reaches the master level which also relates to this thread. I would like share what I have been told almost verbatum.

Becoming effective can be taught in a short time. But to become highly skilled budoka is a long process. A process that has levels like densho. Your first marker is, of course, Basics. But they are more than that. Even for a beginner, each art has a different idea of what basics should be.

Next basics turn into the more complicated combinations you know as kata or waza. Even these contain more than meets the eye. Even really basic waza can have subtle application which can be lost by people who regularly practice it. (okuden?)

Another marker is when form & techniques produce variation. For most students, improvement in the martial arts means adding to their list of techniques or variations. The more choices of techniques you have with which to respond to an attack, the better you are able to handle that attack.

Variations lead to principles. Even the most skilled shouldn't try to remember the limitless techniques. This is why the next marker on the road to mastery is understanding how variations can be summarized into a relatively small group of principles. Different arts approach principles in different ways; but, to master an art, you must go beyond the accumulation of techniques to the integration of concepts.

Finally everything is Budo. When you integrate both techniques and principles, you go beyond shape, form, or style. Not only do your trained actions become automatic, but your everyday actions become structured with the new intent of self-defense. You now can turn any motion into a lock, a block, a blow, or a throw. Because budo has become part of your life, your life can serve as the shape, style and method of your budo.

Summary:

Kata is never bad!

Form is a way of teaching a student to do something right. It is a classical shape that shows an underlying principle. If you don't learn the kata you have nothing to learn from. If you don't understand the principle, you will be locked into a form without meaning. Some students have good form but are not effective. There are probably even more who don't have good form to begin with. Alot of people want to be graduate students(and teachers)without going to elementary school first.

After first learning proper form, mastering the principles underlying the forms, can help you be more effective even when using dramatically different techniques. In the big scheme of things "Style is less important than principle".

People who are at both ends of the spectrum: Bad kata collector (jumping from dojo to dojo getting kata and leaving until their next cycle)and those who don't learn the basics or even train hard(but want the SUPER SERCRETS and do alot networking around the dojo so they can hit the seminar circuit) don't understand that. That is why alot of people SUCK! Japanese, North/South American, European and Australian alike.

That is my two cents. Thank you.

Posted on: 2007/7/21 17:43
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Re: The "kata collector" label
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Argueing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics...... :)

Seriously though, does anyone have any sort of knowledge/references about how, historically, kata were used to teach in the nine schools of the Bujinkan? Otherwise anything said regarding the historical validity of Arunaud's statement is conjecture.....

Posted on: 2007/7/22 1:15
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......Samuel Zavaletta

Please be careful not to have preconceptions, and to always remember the idea of truth-and-falsehood.
-- Hatsum
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Re: The "kata collector" label
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Jeff, that may well be true. My point is that I would much rather take the experience of one who IS at the top level in this art and whom I do respect for his knowlege and long years of training. That put with my personal knowlege of both individuals, although admittedly my knowlege of Daniel is a LOT less and is based on meeting and talking with him as well as his many very opinionated posts, makes me very sure in my choice of who has the better understanding. It would have been far better to say "contact Arnaud as I don't understand his reason for saying that", instead of calling it stupid. For a much more junior person to criticise his senior and a well respected one at that, makes me think of someone shooting off their mouth with not a lot behind it. Sorry I couldn't let it pass.

Posted on: 2007/7/22 8:53
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Ed Martin aka Papa-san
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