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Re: Dhatu Vada Kata (subtitled, the myth of the correct kata)
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Hmm... perfect Kata... what might that be? It could be understood again in various ways (or maybe that was the point )...

Posted on: 2007/7/30 19:13
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Re: Dhatu Vada Kata (subtitled, the myth of the correct kata)
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Quote:

Erizabesu wrote:

If we go with this proposition, then the efforts of generations of practitioners mean nothing. They were colouring outide the lines of the kata all these years. It means that your teacher can't teach you, because ultimately, you either have the perfect kata or you don't. Kuden means nothing. "It's in the densho. Do it right and you've got perfect kata." That perspective disses your teacher who is supposed by tradition to be the conduit, via kuden, of the movement.


Maybe all those previous generations of practitioners had the 'perfect kata', or access to it. They studied with 'the guy' that had it, in close proximity to him, etc. Maybe it is just the last generation of practitioners who make a week long trip to japan once a year to take in 3 classes with 'the guy' and are missing out on all that kuden that are 'colouring outside the lines'

Posted on: 2007/7/30 21:13
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Re: Dhatu Vada Kata (subtitled, the myth of the correct kata)
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For humans there is the need to "struggle", to work toward something. Maybe that is one of the aspects that is critical to us being fully human. The whole concept of "perfect" is something that just maybe we create in order to strive toward something even though we do (most of us at least) recognize that "perfection" is not an attainable goal. By our very hunam nature it is impossible. There is also the aspect to consider that our very flawed human nature could not even recognize this impossible "perfection" IF it could be attained. So anyone thinking they have attained "perfection" is just deluding themselves. Martial Art is just a part of Life, it is not LIFE, it is a way to help us live Life more successfully. I know that is a departure from the "kata collector" theme in this thread, but I do think that the philosophy/motivation behind a person's actions is very important. Do we have a right to tell another their way is wrong when we don't fully understand "their way"? We always can say "that way is not right for me".The longer we continue to study with Dr. Hatsumi (IMO) the more we come to understand what he is teaching, and maybe the more we come to understand the kata as he teaches them. What is important, I think, is that we each get from this art what we need and want, not what someone ELSE thinks we need to get. If a person can show they live a successful life that shows to me they have an understanding of the principles in this art. (Like do they support themselves and their family, do they have a responsible position in our society, is their family(and relationships) functional,etc)To use knowlege of terms or collecting all the kata as proof of expertise is a major mistake. Also to presume to know what another can do merely by size, sex, or age, is to make a huge mistake. I consider as proof of expertise not what someone says, but what they have done and do.
Very happpy you're back safe Jeff!

Posted on: 2007/7/30 23:04
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Re: Dhatu Vada Kata (subtitled, the myth of the correct kata)
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Quote:

benkyoka wrote:
Maybe all those previous generations of practitioners had the 'perfect kata', or access to it. They studied with 'the guy' that had it, in close proximity to him, etc. Maybe it is just the last generation of practitioners who make a week long trip to japan once a year to take in 3 classes with 'the guy' and are missing out on all that kuden that are 'colouring outside the lines'


I so agree with you!!! I think this again is natural, as only those who live there for a long time (like say the whole year) that might get deeper insight to the year's theme.

I know that I get "only" glimpses, flashes, when I do my 1-2 week's trip. I just hope it is enough, for if it wasn't I think it would be wiser to simply quit

BUT! Luckily there are others who visit "the source" at different times than I do, and meeting these trainees and teachers I can try and build bridges, try to patch my leaky knowledge boat

Gambatte kudasai, buyû!

Posted on: 2007/7/31 0:46
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Re: Dhatu Vada Kata (subtitled, the myth of the correct kata)
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Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
... I know that is a departure from the "kata collector" theme in this thread, but I do think that the philosophy/motivation behind a person's actions is very important. Do we have a right to tell another their way is wrong when we don't fully understand "their way"?


Yes. We do and we *should*.

Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
We always can say "that way is not right for me". ... What is important, I think, is that we each get from this art what we need and want, not what someone ELSE thinks we need to get.


Fair enough. This then comes down to identifying the purpose of your training and being honest about it. As soon as you state the purpose of your training (or participation) - then you have something to be judged against.

Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
If a person can show they live a successful life that shows to me they have an understanding of the principles in this art.


HorseCrap. There are millions of people who live "successful lives" who haven't even heard of this art. The two have virtually NOTHING to do with each other.

Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
To use knowlege of terms or collecting all the kata as proof of expertise is a major mistake.


This makes no sense. Knowledge of the kata is proof of expertise at some level....

Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
Also to presume to know what another can do merely by size, sex, or age, is to make a huge mistake. I consider as proof of expertise not what someone says, but what they have done and do.


Agreed. It doesn't matter what your size, shape, age or sex is... you can either do it or you can't. If you can't, then it doesn't matter what you say...

-Daniel

Posted on: 2007/7/31 3:30
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Re: Dhatu Vada Kata (subtitled, the myth of the correct kata)
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I just want to add a small thing. Soke always says that we can make a technique %100 perfect but still can get killed. He also says that we must do a techniques at %60-70 not %100.I think he wants to say that in reality anything can change and we always must have a way to change and adopt the new situation. so as for the Kata there can never be the correct one as even it is pre-known still your uke can do sth. differently or his(her)body can be too different etc. Forgive my English but I hope I could explain my self a bit.
Just my little thoughts and I will be happy to learn.

Posted on: 2007/7/31 6:34
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Re: Dhatu Vada Kata (subtitled, the myth of the correct kata)
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Quote:

TenChiJin Guy wrote:
....

Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
If a person can show they live a successful life that shows to me they have an understanding of the principles in this art.


HorseCrap. There are millions of people who live "successful lives" who haven't even heard of this art. The two have virtually NOTHING to do with each other.



Daniel,


The fact that some other people "outside of the art" are happy/successful DOES NOT IMPLY that one of the main goals of the Bujinkan art is not living great life. The fact that other people are happy/successful just means that there are some ways to achieve that outside of Bujinkan or that the principles of bujinkan are universal and can be learned other ways, outside of the art too.
I hope the above was clear. I am not a native English speaker.

Empty your cup. Let us look at prof. Humphrey's warrior creed again...
http://www.livingvalues.com/warrior_creed.htm
It ends with "It's a better life".
I think that one of the main purposes of the bujinkan art is what the worrior creed says and what Pap-san said in different words. Form what I know about the tradition of this art, this has been one of the main goals for many generations. Perfecting kata and other knowledge is a very necessary element to prepare us to be fit for the purpose. Professor's portrait hangs in a prominent place in the Hombu dojo. 'nuff said.

This is at least what I am learning in the bujinkan form my teachers, and whenever I go to Japan, and whenever I watch Soke's DVDs and train with him in my home dojo every night. However imperfect my keiko is...
On many of the Soke DVDs you can hear Soke say is not only teaching us how to fight but he teaches us how to live... I heard that in person a couple of times.

Anyway, it is bu-jin-kan not bu-kan.

peace
Mariusz

Posted on: 2007/7/31 6:51
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Re: Dhatu Vada Kata (subtitled, the myth of the correct kata)
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I promised myself I would not get sucked back into this nonsense, but I just can't resist.

Will people please stop quoting Dr. Humphrey as some sort of affirmation to things Bujinkan related? He has nothing to do with our art other than the fact that Jack Hoban held him in high regard.

As far as the whole 'perfect kata' thing goes, wouldn't the perfect kata be the way your teacher shows you? I mean if he is your teacher, you should be striving to master everything he has to teach you before you move on to trying to 'make it your own' right?

Ultimately the perfect kata is dependent upon your viewpoint.

The perfect kata in terms of the lineage of the art? That is simple... it is the way that Takamatsu sensei taught Hatsumi sensei. The soke owns the kata so to speak and his word is gospel when it comes to the transmission of the art for art's sake.

The perfect kata in terms of your personal training? That is a different story... it all depends on your goals, the motives of your instructor, etc... but in my opinion people who are not within direct succession of the teaching of Takamatsu to Hatsumi sensei to the orginal shihan should be wary of speaking about what a kata is or isn't.

Posted on: 2007/7/31 7:05
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Re: Dhatu Vada Kata (subtitled, the myth of the correct kata)
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Quote:

mariusz wrote:

Daniel,

The fact that some other people "outside of the art" are happy/successful DOES NOT IMPLY that one of the main goals of the Bujinkan art is not living great life. This is not logical. It would require a bold implicit assumption that the Bujinkan art is the only way to be happy. A very narrow-minded assumption. The fact that other people are happy/successful just means that there are some ways to achieve that outside of Bujinkan.
I hope the above was clear. I am not a native English speaker.


It is clear. I just completely disagree with it.

Let me be MORE clear for you.

You have two Bujinkan instructors: one who teaches whatever he wants to teach (mostly tae bo for soccer moms) and another who teaches as closely to the spirit of the art as he can. If the instructor who is teaching Budo-Aerobics is more successful in his life (happy, wealthy, good friends, etc) - does he have a "better understanding of the principles of this art"? They have VIRTUALLY nothing but VERY loose correlation to each other. Does this make sense?

Quote:

mariusz wrote:
Empty your cup. Let us look at prof. Humphrey's warrior creed again...


Ugh. Thank you for assuming I have a full cup.

I am well aware of the warrior's creed.

Quote:

mariusz wrote:
Anyway, it is bu-jin-kan not bu-kan.

peace
Mariusz


Maybe you should check into what the Bujinkan name meant and why Sensei named our school that. It probably isn't what you are thinking...

-Daniel

Posted on: 2007/7/31 7:07
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Re: Dhatu Vada Kata (subtitled, the myth of the correct kata)
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JeffMueller wrote:
IWill people please stop quoting Dr. Humphrey as some sort of affirmation to things Bujinkan related? He has nothing to do with our art other than the fact that Jack Hoban held him in high regard.


Jeff,

Just ot make sure because I am new and what I know I learn form others... And I heard form several teachers whom I respect that this is very relevant. It also makes a lot of sense to me and helps me with my ethical system.

So you asked Soke about the relevance of the warrior creed to the bujinkan art and this is what he answered?

thanks

Mariusz

Posted on: 2007/7/31 7:15
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