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Why a "group" or "organization" exists
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So many times we see the differing of opinion within groups expressed in antagonistic ways. Why? A group or organization only comes into existance because there is need to work together in order to accomplish both the groups goals and the individual's goals within the group. So why the heavy antagonism? I think it comes because an individual forgets just why s/he is there which is to learn what the group has been formed to teach/learn/explore/etc. Instead the individual allows their desire to be recognized as worthwhile or egotisticly as "superior" to overcome the whole reason they are part of that group. Western Civilization has always put a stong emphasis on the individual and that has a lot of value, IMO, because anything new first starts in ONE person's mind. It then takes a group to make that idea seed grow into a useful form that benefits the whole civilization. It is this balance between the individual and the group that is so very important. If either gets out of balance the civilization/culture/group/organization/etc suffers.

Posted on: 2007/7/26 22:08
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Ed Martin aka Papa-san
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Re: Why a "group" or "organization" exists
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I totally agree with you Ed. I sometimes think that some of friends here have very sharp tongue but let us do not forget that we come together and train together. I always want to feel nice when training. I am here to learn sth. from others. Still can recognize too late that I also help some do their antagonism.
It is very easy to break hearts but so hard to fix it.

Posted on: 2007/7/27 1:14
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Re: Why a "group" or "organization" exists
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Quote:

So why the heavy antagonism? I think it comes because an individual forgets just why s/he is there which is to learn what the group has been formed to teach/learn/explore/etc.


In a very large group like the one we all belong to where instructors are given so much freedom to teach as they see fit, to disagree with and teach material very differently from each other and, perhaps out of necessity, to express what often amounts to their own interpretation of the art, at times it can be understandably difficult to reconcile the evolution of the status quo with any given idea of what the group was originally formed to teach. This is a feature of many large groups, not just ours. That's not a complaint on my part, just an observation.

I think it's perfectly reasonable that within that sort of environment, some members of the group will, at times, feel justifiably moved towards passionate vocalization against certain things. Whether it really is or really isn't, that could come across as antagonism.

And while I think it's certainly possible that in some situations the cause could be what you said, I think it's also just as possible that in some situations the cause could be that an individual remembers quite clearly why he/she is there and what the group was formed to teach.

Again, this is just objective observation. It doesn't reflect my opinion one way or the other and it has nothing to do with the thread that seems to have spawned this one.

John

[Edit: fixed grammar mistake]

Posted on: 2007/7/27 4:02
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Hehehe...
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Interesting topic.

Brings to mind the idea of what rank really means in Hatsumi Sensei's Bujinkan as opposed to any other martial art in the world...

Hatsumi Sensei, especially in the last 15 years, has put all teachers on "the stage" to demo. Many self serving teacher's have thought that this was an affirmation of Hatsumi Sensei's support... Being one who used to adhere to the concept of rank, I always saw those moments as oppostunities of failure by comparison, as opposed to a moment to "shine".

He wanted the masses to see which teacher could actually do and which actually could not...

Rank means nothing. If you want or need rank... You need only ask Hatsumi Sensei to immediately know you are in the wrong art.

Anyone that states their rank before making a point... instead of making a point... is fooling themselves and worst yet, anyone who listens to them...

Mr Dan obviously needs to see actual results... Ten-Chi-Jin meaning he is a student of one of the few Shihan I give my stamp as actually being able to fight themselves out of a paper bag... Shido'shi Bill Atkins... A 1st degree black belt under Mr. Bill Atkins is better than a 5th dan under most... worldwide... Ask any Japanese Shihan's opinion of Mr Bill and see the kind of reaction you would want of your own name.

I would like to believe that Hatsumi Sensei would have us find, and use, our own unique path... without the pretense of a title... to get us through an actual "life or death" encounter.

Listen to a teacher that suits you. There are many to choose from... One end of a see-saw will always defend it's view...

Antagonism is a freedom of the living... Consider all of us fortunate in that respect...

But see my tagline...

Posted on: 2007/7/28 17:07
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"SHUT UP AND TRAIN!!!" Hatsumi So'Ke 87' when asked what to do about politics in the Bujinkan. Shido'shi James Garcia (Mikey, Slimey Jaime, Hentai Jaime and the Rat)
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Re: Hehehe...
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Yes it is very true Ercan, that once it has been said, it can't be "taken back". The damage will be done and must be dealt with. Words are very quickly said and the hurt caused very long lasting. John I agree that passion is a good thing, but how should it be expressed? I think when it gets to the point of attacking the other individual that it has lost its beneficial purpose and transitioned to only ego and the beating of the chest. Opinions of what someone else believes have very little value unless they are backed up with facts, is that not so? The value of another's opinion is based on our perception of their expertise to hold an opinion on the subject. If you wanted a good opinion on what happens in combat, who would you most accept ---- a soldier who has many times been in combat, or someone who has never seen a battle? Does the ability to logically defend an idea reign supreme when what is being opinionated on is something heavily weighted by "feeling"? Those are questions that only the individual can answer. I think Dr Hatsumi has set things up (in rank, instructors, etc) the way he has for a reason. I base that on the 18 years I've personally known and interacted with him, often on a very personal basis. No I am not the "only" one who has done so, many others, especially the senior instructors, have also. I also agree with James that Sensei has had his reasons for the demos he had instructors do and that Bill is a fine gentleman and a very capable martial artist and instructor. I still think that passion has its place but not as a means to attempt the belittling of another or as a way to impose your own idea as best. Just some thoughts gentlemen.

Posted on: 2007/7/29 1:33
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Re: Hehehe...
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Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
I think Dr Hatsumi has set things up (in rank, instructors, etc) the way he has for a reason.

Hear, hear!!! I'll second that notion!

In Sanmyaku Sôke has talked about this (too ) along the lines of "it takes work to stay in the position one has reached" (or maybe put up to?). A rank is mere numbers, years in the art is... again numbers. It's up to the individual him/herself to make the mark, not the numbers, right?

Like it is said about the Godan-test; the actual testing is after the test...


Posted on: 2007/7/29 3:16
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Hehehe...2
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This reminds me of a conversation I had with Mr. Jack Hoban about Hatsumi Sensei's description of Bufu' / Martial Wind and the importance of the concept in the Bujinkan.

Jack said, that more than just titles or techniques were passed to Hatsumi Sensei from Takamatsu Sensei, but also the breath of the teachers from before us all... The life or essence if you will, of many So'ke in 9 arts... A living, breathing entity, not just mere technique.

He said that this life essence is what Hatsumi Sensei keeps alive through the Bujinkan, and you either ride along with his essence or you do not. You see it and either "get it" or not. Many people see this wind and are not interested, and don't "get it." Some are attracted to it, but leave and start their own paths and organizations, but in so doing, cut themselves off from the "life" that has been transmitted from Takamatsu Sensei.

As long as ties are maintained to Hatsumi Sensei, their is no need for everyone to think alike or get along, as long as they maintain the life connection to Hatsumi Sensei we are all Bufu'... Shoot, I don't get along with some of my close family members, but would come to their aide if needed because of the family bond. But I still wouldn't drink with some of em, hehe...

Just keep riding with Hatsumi Sensei and what does it matter if siblings squabble... Hehe...

Posted on: 2007/7/29 6:51
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"SHUT UP AND TRAIN!!!" Hatsumi So'Ke 87' when asked what to do about politics in the Bujinkan. Shido'shi James Garcia (Mikey, Slimey Jaime, Hentai Jaime and the Rat)
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Re: Hehehe...2
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Quote:
As long as ties are maintained to Hatsumi Sensei, their is no need for everyone to think alike or get along, as long as they maintain the life connection to Hatsumi Sensei we are all Bufu'.


I think this nicely sums up several of the threads that I've seen on Kutaki in the last few weeks including:

Time Between Dan Ranks

The Kata Collector Label

Thanks Jaime!

Posted on: 2007/8/15 1:18
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Re: Why a "group" or "organization" exists
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Mr. Bill Atkins is better than a 5th dan under most... worldwide...


Jamie sensei,
Better at what?

If rank means nothing then why state 5th dan better or etc than another human being?

And if so or never the less then what are they better at doing than say the next guy?

Who makes this judgment call who is better than say ????

Ralph Severe, kamiyama

Posted on: 2007/8/17 13:43
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Re: Hehehe...
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Quote:

JamesGarcia wrote:
Shido'shi Bill Atkins... A 1st degree black belt under Mr. Bill Atkins is better than a 5th dan under most... worldwide... Ask any Japanese Shihan's opinion of Mr Bill and see the kind of reaction you would want of your own name.


The whole quote makes better sense. It is always better to take a quote in context.

When it comes to who is to decide who is better or not, why it's me of course. I decide who has movemen that I want to emulate, who says things that I think are outrageous, who is responsible and who is irresponsible. Then I decide if I want to be like them or use them as a negative reference. I'll enlist the advice of people that I trust or respect to help direct me - but then I still decide for myself. That doesn't mean what I think is right for everyone, but it is a good chance it is right for those that think like me.

I think that is what Dan is trying to do, albiet with a slightly caustic persona. Maturation and lessons learned the hard way have taught some of us to appreciate some things he would dismiss.

There are those that never mature. And because they don't understand that others have learned from their actions and words; they find themselves isolated and resentfull of not being part of what they think is the "in crowd".

Rank and who makes judment calls as to a persons value is up to the individual. Important only to them. Similarly, my sense of self worth comes from Me. The moment that I need to have someone else tell me I have value, I am lost.


Marty

Posted on: 2007/8/18 0:11
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