Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Socialize
 

Recent Topics

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



(1) 2 3 4 ... 9 »


What is the future of the Bujinkan after the current grappling crazy in general MA passes?
Frequent Visitor
Joined:
2007/9/22 22:11
From Sydney, Australia
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 24
Offline
For those who have been in martial arts for a while its interesting the see the trends change. Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris had their influence in their day. Many called them ground breakers and that they changed the face of martial arts forever. Then we had the Hollywood fuelled ninja crazy when every man and his dog donned a ski mask and tabi to improve the commercial appeal of their dojo. And then we saw the ascendancy of the Gracie Brazilian jujitsu and the MMA phenomena thanks to the UFC.

From what I can see these trends tend to be a Western culture phenomena (but I could be wrong). I think they respond to the Western ideology of “the next best thing” is better and cater to the love of the new fad.

Just from my observation of this ebb and flow in the martial arts I have noticed that the people who have tried to popularise their art may have had benevolent motives in the beginning but it seems that ultimately the art suffered by its commercialisation and it eventually succumbed to change to fit the mainstream.

A perfect example would be Gracie who originally helped form the UFC to showcase his Jujitsu to the world and expand his “business interest” in the US. Initially this had a profound effect on the martial arts world and demonstrated quite convincingly the short comings of the non-grappling arts. But it wasn’t long before everyone was cross training in grappling and the new martial discipline of Mixed Martial Arts was born. Gracie’s rein at the top of the heap was relatively short lived. I would go so far as to say his meteoric rise has hurt the effectiveness of his system, because we’ve all seen his bag of tricks, and many out there have developed very effective counters. I recently re-watched UFC 60 with Gracie and Hughes and it was obvious that Gracie had cross trained in kicking and punching to keep up with new breed of fighters. Regardless, it just wasn’t enough because Hughes had obviously studied Gracie’s moves and defeated him convincingly.

This brings me to my relevance to the Bujinkan. Do people feel that the Bujinkan has in the past or is now being influenced by these trends? Personally, I have come across a number of Bujinkan guys who admit to cross training in BJJ. Do people feel that the Bujinkan has become commercialised and is being compromised to fit the mainstream martial client needs? Since I started in 1989 I have noticed that the training has softened up a lot in a number of dojos, is this an indication of this trend? Do people feel we in the Bujinkan are revealing too much information to people in other martial arts who are not willing to put in the effort to actually train in the Bujinkan? Or do people feel the Bujinkan has already been through that ebb and is now flowing in a different direction, with a tightening up on the rankings, training, etc.

I know a lot of people will say but MMA is a sport and Bujinkan is not and there is no comparison. But the reality is many people train in MMA or BJJ not for sport but for street self defence.

As a final point it’s interesting to note that an increasing number of people are starting voice their concern that ground fighters are developing a significant disadvantage when it comes to application in real street situations. Grappling is fine for one on one unarmed combat but the reality is street fights are usual multiple on one with weapons. MMA and BJJ in these circumstances is seriously problematic. If this understanding gains greater wide spread acceptance what do people see as the next evolution or trend in the martial arts?

Posted on: 2007/9/23 19:06
_________________
[Sir Winston Churchill] We will not say thereafter that the Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like the Greeks. - BOOM!
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: What is the future of the Bujinkan after the current grappling crazy in general MA passes?
Cant Stay Offline
Joined:
2003/6/13 23:29
From Pennsylvania, USA
Group:
村民 :: Villager
議長 :: Mod
師導士会 :: Shidoshikai
Posts: 1834
Offline
Your last comment about the criticism for "ground fighting" is in fact a reality. How often on the street do you see a mere one on one with NO weapons involved? It just doesn't happen and with BOTH of those the one absolute necessity for survival is to retain your mobility. On the ground you have lost it.
Those who train in any sport art for other then sport are fooling themselves. The comment on "rules" is a reality. If you always train with certain areas of the body "off limits" you will subscionously abide by that training when your survival is at stake, and you therefore give yourself a MAJOR handicapp. Sure such sports have survival applications, but do you really want to train with those gaping holes in your perception? Not me!
I too have watched the fadism that has occurred in martial art, those that really know what they want don't go flitting all over the place, they get educated about what is available and then train. There has always been criticism about our rank structure by those outside the Bujinkan and some within our ranks, that I think has been continually and quietly been addressed, the process is continuing. Do be carefull about evaluating only by the flashiness, our art at its most effectiveness looks really dull and fake, IT IS SUPPOSED TOO!!! That's part of its effectiveness.
The reason so much training has gone to the softer is because it has so many advantages. That is why Sensei has IMO gone to that type of training. One other major advantage is injuries become much less in number. That is very important.

Posted on: 2007/9/24 0:59
_________________
Ed Martin aka Papa-san
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: What is the future of the Bujinkan after the current grappling crazy in general MA passes?
Active Kutakian
Joined:
2005/8/3 10:42
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 117
Offline
As far as sport martial arts being a fad. I think thousands of years of sport wrestling and pugilism in almost every culture disprove that. People always want to test themselves against others in a socially acceptable way (some do this in anti-social ways)

To me, the most positive thing the Bujinkan (as a whole) can learn from sports martial artists is work ethic. I'd say most in the Bujinkan (there are always exceptions) don't train very hard (very little contact, very little physical conditioning, low intensity, etc.)

You don't need MMA to train hard but I think a competetive sportsman (or woman) is a good example of how hard we should be training in order to reach a high level of skill.

I read a book about Ken Shamrock that said he could do 500 deep knee bends (butt to the floor) in a row. I challenge everyone to give that a try and see how far you get. See how quickly your will is sapped and how soon you want to make mental justifications for why you shouldn't continue.

There is a lot of toughness to be gained from physcially and mentally demanding training that is more important in a real fight than technical details of a wrist lock, etc. IMHO

Jeff

Posted on: 2007/9/24 6:39
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: What is the future of the Bujinkan after the current grappling crazy in general MA passes?
Frequent Visitor
Joined:
2007/9/22 22:11
From Sydney, Australia
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 24
Offline
Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
Do be carefull about evaluating only by the flashiness, our art at its most effectiveness looks really dull and fake, IT IS SUPPOSED TOO!!! That's part of its effectiveness.
The reason so much training has gone to the softer is because it has so many advantages. That is why Sensei has IMO gone to that type of training. One other major advantage is injuries become much less in number. That is very important.

Hello Papa-san,

Thank you for taking to time to add to this tread. Your imput is much appreciated.

On the issue you raised about "flashiness" I have to 100% agree. I have come to realise that on the street the less flash the more efficient you are and the fewer consequences there are when the dust settles. I would like to hear your prespective on why our art looks dull, I agree, but I haven't been able to work out why. Is this deliberately built into our style. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

In regards to softness in the training, the injury issue is obvious but I can't think of any other advantage. This has bugged me for a while, although it hasn't really effected my training, except that it made it harder to find people to train with. What do you see as the other advatages of training softer?

Thanks, Peter

Posted on: 2007/9/24 8:18
_________________
[Sir Winston Churchill] We will not say thereafter that the Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like the Greeks. - BOOM!
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: What is the future of the Bujinkan after the current grappling crazy in general MA passes?
Frequent Visitor
Joined:
2007/9/22 22:11
From Sydney, Australia
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 24
Offline
Quote:

bigred wrote:
As far as sport martial arts being a fad. I think thousands of years of sport wrestling and pugilism in almost every culture disprove that. People always want to test themselves against others in a socially acceptable way (some do this in anti-social ways)

To me, the most positive thing the Bujinkan (as a whole) can learn from sports martial artists is work ethic. I'd say most in the Bujinkan (there are always exceptions) don't train very hard (very little contact, very little physical conditioning, low intensity, etc.)

You don't need MMA to train hard but I think a competetive sportsman (or woman) is a good example of how hard we should be training in order to reach a high level of skill.

I read a book about Ken Shamrock that said he could do 500 deep knee bends (butt to the floor) in a row. I challenge everyone to give that a try and see how far you get. See how quickly your will is sapped and how soon you want to make mental justifications for why you shouldn't continue.

There is a lot of toughness to be gained from physcially and mentally demanding training that is more important in a real fight than technical details of a wrist lock, etc. IMHO

Jeff


Hello Jeff,

Thanks for your input. I agree that sports martial arts have been around forever. Pankration, for instance, was the first MMA and it featured in the first Olympics in ancient Greece.

I was thinking more along the lines of MA used on the street. I have seen a lot of real street fights and I have noticed the trend go from boxing, to more kicking and now alot more people are going to the ground and grappling.

Do you think this trend has influenced at least the emphasis of our training in the Bujinkan? Or do you think the Bujinkan is oblivious to what is happening elsewhere?

I agree with the fittness issue you raised. There are too many fat Bujinkan people. I'm a little bit guilty there, I could lose a few more kgs. But I'm working on it.

Thanks, Peter

Posted on: 2007/9/24 8:33
_________________
[Sir Winston Churchill] We will not say thereafter that the Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like the Greeks. - BOOM!
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: What is the future of the Bujinkan after the current grappling crazy in general MA passes?
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2006/9/1 12:02
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 215
Offline
Quote:

bigred wrote:
To me, the most positive thing the Bujinkan (as a whole) can learn from sports martial artists is work ethic.


I completely agree with this statement. Quite a lot of the time the problem is one of focus - the harder you train the better you get.

There may be varous fads in sporting styles of martial arts but I think there are some strong positives underlying them as well.

I would reply by quoting a previous post i made here:

http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/v ... t_id=35462#forumpost35462

Quote:

Harden Up
I believe the founder of judo, Kano-sensei, once said “After you learn judo you should learn jujutsu”. In the same vein I think it could be said “Before you learn jujutsu you should learn judo”. It is my belief that skill in a fighting sport such as judo, kendo, boxing, mixed martial arts, wrestling etc goes a long way in producing a base to work from.

The negative is you have to also unlearn some bad habits but the advantage is you gain some sport fighting experience. Obviously someone in a occupation such as the police with a lot of real fighting experience always starts with an advantage in learning budo – for the average person the only substitute is the sporting world.

You will have to be young enough, have enough time and be willing but there are advantages. I think Hatsumi-sensei and several of the shihan with judo backgrounds have this advantage.

Some people try to add various forms of sparing, mixed martial arts and “pressure testing” to their Bujinkan classes but I think this is a big mistake. If people feel it is necessary they should find a good gym and train there, separating this training from their Bujinkan classes.

Adding sporting methods to our training is becoming sidetracked.

So while I hold a maybe controversial belief in training in fighting sports as a supplement and a way of hardening yourself – I still hold a strong belief in keeping on track with training in the Bujinkan.

If you don’t have the time, inclination or are too old to start a sporting style then just persevere with the Bujinkan but it is important to “harden up”. Focus your mind on getting tough as this spirit is just as important as technique in winning. I think this can also be developed though consistent training and the discipline of training day in and day out.

Posted on: 2007/9/24 8:37
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: What is the future of the Bujinkan after the current grappling crazy in general MA passes?
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2004/1/11 15:11
From Colorado
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 233
Offline
Quote:

RONIN wrote:

I was thinking more along the lines of MA used on the street. I have seen a lot of real street fights and I have noticed the trend go from boxing, to more kicking and now alot more people are going to the ground and grappling.

Do you think this trend has influenced at least the emphasis of our training in the Bujinkan? Or do you think the Bujinkan is oblivious to what is happening elsewhere?



One of my teachers, who Jeff knows, was always one to point out that the most likely thing you will encounter is what is popular. TV, sport, general martial arts. Thus he emphasized the idea of observing these and looking at how our training can be used to defeat these types of opponents. Martial arts, war, business the same principle applies. Understand your enemy and the tactics and strategies they are likely to use.

As to physical training well I think on another post I addressed that. Strength, cardio (short burst and endurance), pylometrics all done with intensity. I am good on power but recently paid a trainer to develop a program based on what we do, or what I described to him.

On the issue of how to train I still see no reason not to just up speed and intensity. Better to feel it in training and be ready than get a big surprise in real life.

There is an interesting show on I think the History channel of these two guys traveling the world studying. The most interesting training programs they showed were Krav Maga in Israel and the US Marine Corp program. Looked familiar.

Posted on: 2007/9/24 11:43
_________________
"All who wander are not lost and all that glitters is not gold."

Alan Witty...
www.warriorwindma.com
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: What is the future of the Bujinkan after the current grappling crazy in general MA passes?
Cant Stay Offline
Joined:
2003/6/13 23:29
From Pennsylvania, USA
Group:
村民 :: Villager
議長 :: Mod
師導士会 :: Shidoshikai
Posts: 1834
Offline
What is "built in" IMO Peter, is efficiency and that in itself prevents the "flash". As to the advantages of "soft" there are many. In example the soft gives very little data to the opponent while giving you the maximium in adaptability. Without that data it is difficult for your opponent to understand what you intend before it is already done. Hidden is hard to stop. It makes possible the flow, or floating within the space. The soft touching allows you to take control without the opponent knowing that they've been controlled. I know it is difficult to just read this and understand, it is far easier to demonstrate this in person. Also the slow training permits a much faster acquision of the proper muscle memory so the correct response can come without the thinking. (that's because you don't need to overwrite incorrect moves with many right ones thus delaying the proper implantation in muscle memory. Does that help answer it Peter?

Posted on: 2007/9/24 11:57
_________________
Ed Martin aka Papa-san
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: What is the future of the Bujinkan after the current grappling crazy in general MA passes?
Frequent Visitor
Joined:
2007/9/22 22:11
From Sydney, Australia
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 24
Offline
Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
What is "built in" IMO Peter, is efficiency and that in itself prevents the "flash". As to the advantages of "soft" there are many. In example the soft gives very little data to the opponent while giving you the maximium in adaptability. Without that data it is difficult for your opponent to understand what you intend before it is already done. Hidden is hard to stop. It makes possible the flow, or floating within the space. The soft touching allows you to take control without the opponent knowing that they've been controlled. I know it is difficult to just read this and understand, it is far easier to demonstrate this in person. Also the slow training permits a much faster acquision of the proper muscle memory so the correct response can come without the thinking. (that's because you don't need to overwrite incorrect moves with many right ones thus delaying the proper implantation in muscle memory. Does that help answer it Peter?


Yes it does Papa-san! Thank you. That's probably the best explanation I’ve heard. I understand where you’re coming from in regards to softness, it’s exactly what I was taught with regards to knife defense. In the confusion of a fight your opponent’s mind is instinctively expecting a hard response, i.e. to be grabbed etc, and he is prepared to respond accordingly. When he doesn’t get those physical queues, from my experience, it mentally puts them off balance and confuses them. Having said that I do see merit in training with a bit of bite, just like you said about muscle memory, I think the body remembers pain and can develop an immunity to a certain extent.

Posted on: 2007/9/24 12:29
_________________
[Sir Winston Churchill] We will not say thereafter that the Greeks fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like the Greeks. - BOOM!
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: What is the future of the Bujinkan after the current grappling crazy in general MA passes?
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2006/9/1 12:02
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 215
Offline
If the discussion is on the influence of the BJJ remember that those guys (well the ones who are any good) are very soft relaxed and technical.

I would say those are shared qualities. Of course there are other large differences.

Posted on: 2007/9/24 13:20
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer



(1) 2 3 4 ... 9 »




[Advanced Search]


Today's Sponsor