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Re: Test testiness
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Quote:

Philip wrote:
Quote:

Isn't this about the various ways each teacher can, if he/she so chooses, structure ones syllabus?

Some might go HC Kihon... other takes the path of structured Kata... yet next relies of pure Henka.....


No


Oh but if there is a teacher who allows a person to get to the Yondan-place wo/decent Hichô-kaiten, then he (or she) surely uses some other syllabus for ranking than:

Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
The basic building blocks of our art must be learned ---- ie the ukemi, san-shin, and kihon happo. More important is that the person should be constantly evaluated as to their "heart" --- their attitude. Will they misuse what we teach them? I think this is why when I asked Dr. Hatsumi his requirements for sho-dan he gave those three and them emphasized the fourth, a good heart.


I see that as "these must be known... but more might be required also!"

Like, back in the day, I remember the "four European kings" getting together and setting the rank system; AFAIK it was agreed that Ten Chi Jin ryaku no maki was to be known to be promoted to Shodan. And this does enclose the above mentioned three entities and then some...

If we ponder on the Godan-test and another meaning it has... the possibility to take up teaching position.... Surely one should know the basic building blocks... and then some.

My take, there are others, and that's fine, too!

Posted on: 2007/10/19 6:54
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Re: Test testiness
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Quote:

Ôari wrote:
Quote:

Philip wrote:
Quote:

Isn't this about the various ways each teacher can, if he/she so chooses, structure ones syllabus?

Some might go HC Kihon... other takes the path of structured Kata... yet next relies of pure Henka.....


No


Oh but if there is a teacher who allows a person to get to the Yondan-place wo/decent Hichô-kaiten, then he (or she) surely uses some other syllabus for ranking than:


Okay I see what you mean... In this case still no. I trained at that particular school. There was no syllabus other than 1: do akemi 2: learn cool looking inneffectual technique 3:listen to my stories about how great I am. I was making a specific reference not a genral one. My bad. The hicho kaitain anecdote was in response to my early tai kai rank test witnessing in which Toruko-jin had a similar bad exp.

Posted on: 2007/10/19 7:39
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Phil Smith

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Re: Test testiness
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If there is no consistency between nidans between different schools, then it strongly suggests that the whole idea of promoting people to the rank they've to grow into next works only on the insecure people.

Giving strict and clear requirements do give the student confidence, that's true. So that's up to the shidoshi if he/she wants the students confident or not. I personally don't see a problem with either way.

As for those who will study ONLY what is required to pass for the next rank (like an average Singaporean), is that really a problem? Just make the requirements heavier, that's all! :) Seriously, how many instructors complain about having students who study only the Ten Chi Jin because they want shodan?

And what would happen to the Bujinkan if that happened across the board? :)

Junjie
Singapore

Posted on: 2007/10/19 16:47
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Re: Test testiness
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If there is no consistency between nidans between different schools, then it strongly suggests that the whole idea of promoting people to the rank they've to grow into next works only on the insecure people.

Giving strict and clear requirements do give the student confidence, that's true. So that's up to the shidoshi if he/she wants the students confident or not. I personally don't see a problem with either way.

As for those who will study ONLY what is required to pass for the next rank (like an average Singaporean), is that really a problem? Just make the requirements heavier, that's all! :) Seriously, how many instructors complain about having students who study only the Ten Chi Jin because they want shodan?

And what would happen to the Bujinkan if that happened across the board? :)

Junjie
Singapore

Posted on: 2007/10/19 16:47
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Re: Test testiness
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TenChiJin Guy wrote:I am known for speaking my mind... so this will be no exception.
a trait that is good and bad. But your students can ask for nothing better then a an instructor who holds no 'mystic' :)

Quote:
It has always seemed extremely affronting to me to not have a measurable ranking system.
from a western perspective, no one can disgree with that. The lack of structure or mainstream organization of our art is frustrating but it all goes back to one person – Hatsumi Sensei. He has ‘organised’ his system in a way that devalues ranks as we, outside japan, veiw them. This devaluation ends up in a situation where ranks are meaningless ( to all but the wearer).

The problem is when we place value on rank to an extent where the rank of others becomes a concern to your own.


Quote:
Curriculum's are good for two reasons:
1. They give a student a concrete list of things they need to accomplish before they move to the next level.
2. They force the instructor to think about what is needed per level - and it forces the instructor to teach a broader foundation. This includes techniques that they don't like. This includes knowing kata they don't practice regularly. And this means it forces the teacher to critically view his knowledge against a standard.
agree, and this must be the case from the ‘beginning’. Students having a set foundation from which to become technicians of the art first. But as students head towards the ‘middle’We must strive to teach them beyond the set curriculum and moving from technician to self awareness and greater undertstanding of say Kurai Dori(which few here have alluded to).

At the end of the day, Its important to get students to understand that curriculum are guidelines to help them find their feet, build their confidence and eventually develop them into better budoka and more importantly better people.

Quote:
I have no idea what "heart" has to do with testing. What is the rank that someone with a bad heart can get to? 3rd kyu? Yondan? If you are a bad person then you shouldn't be training in the art. This isn't something that needs to be evaluated for ranking - it is something that is evaluated before you step on the tatami. Period..
The ‘heart’ in testing has more to do with budo feeling and effort then anything esle. This coincides with building confidence(if not underhand pressure). For the record, ‘bad people’ have done this art and have become better people for it. The ability of budo to change peoples lives is often not acknowledged enough.

Quote:
I would submit that a lot of the cancer in this art is a direct result of this kind of attitude...
I prefer to look at the many good things and people that Bujinkan has produced - especially pertaining to the concept of Buyu.

Quote:
The crap teachers promote crap students - who in turn become crap instructors themselves. They then promote each other in a crap typhoon. Crap begets crap. For those who train seriously - it sucks to be passed up by the self-feeding perpetual machine that is the crap factory.
yep, a terrible cycle. As mentioned by someone here before, students at the end of the day are their own person. They must learn to see beyond the ‘mystic’ of titles etc. But unfortunately, this often seems to only come with experience.

Quote:
But... in the end, your position within the org doesn't really matter, does it? Unless of course you are teaching others and taking money for your efforts. Maybe then it matters. Or not.
well, it does matter to the many who yearly pay their fees to hombu and receive certificates.

What is often viewed as an administrative matter is actually the number one priority of instructors who run schools under the Bujinkan banner. Not from a ‘official’ point of veiw but more from the prospective that it gives the students, under the instructor, a ‘position within the organization’. This position being a direct link to Soke, who at the end of the day is the only ‘teacher’ in this art.

This is especially for dojos in countries where Bujinkan is small but close knit. It matters a lot to these students to know they are part of something bigger because the Bujinkan offers soo much in many ways and can be anything a student wants it to be. This is why there are no secrets in the art anymore, it is there for people to take it as they interpret it.

Such is nature, there is good and bad interpretations. The good we learn from, to enable us to see the bad, which we know is of no importance to our training.



Roger

Posted on: 2007/10/19 23:13
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Re: Test testiness
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"Would it not help certain schools to go through the process of developing a ciriculla through trial and error? The outcome of the process could improve the quality of the martial artists. In my humble opinion."

Phillip, I think you have focused on a very important aspect of our art. It is a continuous LEARNING process. This is as true for instructors as it is for students. No person springs "full blown" as a capable instructor, they begin when Soke authorizes it either through the go-dan test or approving a shidoshi-ho position. If a shidoshi OK's a shidoshi-ho position then s/he accepts that responsibility. (and the responsibility for the resulting students training) Why are we continually insisting that there be some measurable level for a rank? There are so very many things that go into this. I accept that Dr Hatsumi has set this up so that each Shidoshi has the authority to set his/her curiculum up as they see fit. The results as seen in the students skills will define if that instructor has done a good job. That quickly becomes clear to all as better abilities/experience to evaluate training come to the students. Part of what I have learned is that sometimes you just have to do it to the person questioning you on whether or not it works. My usual preference is to not hurt a student beyond what they will accept, but depending on that students attitude sometimes you just must. Do note that I did not say injure, as the instructor should have the skills to prevent that from happening. In an art that is so individual and one that adapts to each person, to demand consistancy seems problematical to me. I hope never to see a robotic representation in the Bujinkan. The experience you related about the constant "how great I am" talking in class caused you to leave didn't it? His lack of "instructor" ability lost you as his student.

Posted on: 2007/10/19 23:47
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Re: Test testiness
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Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
In an art that is so individual and one that adapts to each person, to demand consistancy seems problematical to me. I hope never to see a robotic representation in the Bujinkan. The experience you related about the constant "how great I am" talking in class caused you to leave didn't it? His lack of "instructor" ability lost you as his student.


I hope not either. Thanks, Ed, for this perspective. Your post opens up a few new can of worms that I'm sure we can adress as a group (is that a goal?) , but I'm glad we are on the same page at least.
I don't want everyone to train like my group does. I would like people to be decent in the art from different perspectives. That is how I learn from others.

Posted on: 2007/10/20 0:55
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Re: Test testiness
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Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
In an art that is so individual and one that adapts to each person, to demand consistancy seems problematical to me.


I guess it depends on your reasons for training.
If you are looking for self defense, or for dependable usable skills ....then consistency is extremely important.

Maybe some people are more interested in the "art" side of things, in which case variety may be more interesting or intellectually stimulating, I suppose.

Posted on: 2007/10/20 8:37
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Re: Test testiness
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I personally think it is often a matter of removing criticality from the population. If there are standards, you can judge things. If there aren't... well, then your "version" is no better than my "version".

No instructor likes being second guessed. So this takes care of that sticky issue.

-Daniel

PS. The funny part to me is that it really doesn't take care of critical thinking. It just makes it passive aggressive. We all stand around and silently judge, then talk behind their back. We all make mental notes of craptacular black belts - we just don't say anything at the time... we talk later...

Posted on: 2007/10/20 9:16
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Re: Test testiness
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D_Cecc, I see you misinterpeted my use of "consistancy". I was not referring to an INDIVIDUAL'S consistancy in their effectiveness. That of course is important, but it is very individual. I was referring to the demand that there be "consistancy" of different people merely by the rank they hold. That to me, is probematical.
It is WAY to easy to just sit back and criticize especially if they aren't doing it the way "YOU" think it should be done. What is important is that it work for them. Each person does develope their own most effective way of moving by training well. So much energy is expended here in criticism of OTHER people's training, especially if it isn't the same as "YOUR EXPERT APPROACH". ( I'm not referring directly to you sir, but to those who think they have all the answers) My response is put your time to your own developement and stop bitching about others.

Posted on: 2007/10/20 10:16
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