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groundfighting drills
Permanent Village Fixture
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I'm wondering what kind of groundfighting drills people in the Bujinkan use to train.....other than ground sparring, of course.

"Shrimping" comes to mind as one drill used in Brazilian Jujitsu training halls, as well as MMA training halls.

Anybody have any others they care to share?

p.s. rhyming is cool.

Posted on: 2007/11/11 9:31
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Re: groundfighting drills
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Okay,

I will bite....

Get a buddy (training partner) to lay on the mat with a muay thai pad at the upper chestlevel, get into a side control posture, post up with one knee on the belly (the farthest one away from the head)and drop bombs(strikes;10-20)on the pad. Drop back into side control, spin around chest to chest into side control on the opposite side and repeat.
Do this 3 times, or as many as you want, each side. Add resistance as desired to increase the level of difficulty.

or

Get a buddy to lay on the mat, you start in side control. He transitions you into his guard, you pass the guard to mount he bridges/rolls and ends up in your guard. Switch positions with you on bottom in side control and go again. Add resistance as desired to increase the level of difficulty.


Good Luck.

~ Rob Acox

Posted on: 2007/11/11 11:50
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Re: groundfighting drills
Kutaki Postmaster
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This will rapidly deteriorate but whatever. If you now know that many people favor going to the ground than I would focus on not going there.

There are many ways to adapt Hajutsu to this and we practice this regularly. With plenty of resistance and no specific script. Why let the other guy play to his strength? You will in all likelihood know that an issue is arising. Maintain distance. Have your keys in your hand or a Koppo stick, change, etc. Try striking or jamming kyusho real hard to disrupt the opponent. Learn what kyusho do what. They work and can be pretty effective. Sorry but if we are at you trying to take me down than all bets are off.

On the ground. Practice escaping. Get up. Reset the distance. I fail to see this fascination with being someplace where there is glass and that is hard and uncomfortable. Really, again, won't you know a confrontation is coming? Keys, Koppo, etc. all good weapons. Fists, I guess if you have to. Seems like than it is a brawl or too late.

Once a girlfriend asked me what I would do if someone attacked her or the dogs. Answer in order:

Evade or if not possible
Engage and restrain or if not possible
Engage and disable or if not possible
Increasing escalation.

I see this endless BJK vs. other styles over and over. Train hard, train against resistance, train a move\concept\technique against varying attacks and weapons. Be fit and agile. Know your enemy because if they are attacking you that is what they are. Do what is necessary. Understand legal ramifications.

Posted on: 2007/11/11 12:41
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Re: groundfighting drills
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I believe the OP was inquiring about drills and not resorting to the very tired and much rehashed:

Quote:
I see this endless BJK vs. other styles over and over.


And can we please please not resort to,

Quote:
I fail to see this fascination with being someplace where there is glass and that is hard and uncomfortable.


Because this is just silly.


Quote:
On the ground. Practice escaping. Get up. Reset the distance.


Absolutely. With the first drill you don't have to spin chest to chest and go into side control again on the other side.... you can just get up.

Quote:
If you now know that many people favor going to the ground than I would focus on not going there.


Playing the devils advocate here, but wouldn't it be better to know what to do in case you end up there?

Just a thought.

~ Rob

Posted on: 2007/11/11 12:57
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that here obedient to their laws we lie.
........................................
"Come and take them!" King Leonidas' reply to Xerxes' demand the Spartans lay down their arms at the Battle of Thermopylae.
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Re: groundfighting drills
Kutaki Postmaster
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In regards to drills my teachers have been covering this since the mid-90s. Ask Dale and Mike. Afternoons and nights on your back or on top. With rather large and unpleasant partners. So no issues on practicing against this. This is nothing new.

As to the rest I stick by my guns. But that is as much a personal approach and perspective as anything else.

Tally Ho and not entering into further debate.

Posted on: 2007/11/11 13:06
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Alan Witty...
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Re: groundfighting drills
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Hi,

I am far form perfect in ground fighting, but I have been doing that in a practical way since when I had to face school bullies at the age of 7 so let me say a few words. If you look back the threads on kutaki, you will see a lot of discussion about ground fighting and controversy. For example one opinionated guy ( the usual suspect) saying that almost everybody in the bujinkan suck at fighting on the ground comparing with BJJ. It is a can of worms into which anyone can look and form an opinion. I understand that the questin was form somebodywho already knowd BJJ drills etc and would like to enhance the work with things specific to bujinkan.
Anyway, here are are some ideas that I have been working on last two years either in Dale's class or alone in my everyday keiko. Details can be shown only face-to-face, but maybe the ideas will be useful for exploration:

- alone: down on the floor in various positions study how you can generate powerful strikes in various directions, use you spine and search for possible points of support in various directions. Principles of power generation like in stading GKR or SFR strikes are useful here.

- if you have a book to read, read it on the floor in various positions to learn how to stay relaxed and at the same time maintain functional body posture. This helps to develop core muscles. Fopr example can you hold your head high for 10 minutes while laying on the ground?

- work on consciousness of multiple attackers. Whenever you do any ground work divide your attention between the attacker and all other space. This is a difficult thing. One of the drills we do from time to time is you lie down with 6-12 people standing around you and kicking at you - you learn to be conscious of space, receiving the blows and escaping. Learning how to receive the strikes while on the ground is important

- watch 2006 DKMS dvd (and of course many others such as "what is MA?") and study what Sensei shows about suwari waza. Being able to move freely in suwari waza is an excellent link to ground fighting. IMHO, on the ground you always want to work towards the position where you can very easily maneuver / get up, free up your hands while maintaining control and face incoming dangers. Being tangled up with an opponent in a "superior position" is not always best for survival...

hope this helps a bit

peace
mariusz

Posted on: 2007/11/11 14:33
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Re: groundfighting drills
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well , its a good idea to first learn positions and transitions/escapes from position to position. Everything evolves from there.....

You would have to look to Judo, Bjj, or submission grappling for this.....unless you wanted to re-invent the wheel.


oh, and sparring

Quote:

noname wrote:
.....other than ground sparring, of course.


oops

Posted on: 2007/11/11 14:49
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Re: groundfighting drills
Village Old Timer
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We don't want to spend alot of time being choked either, so it is smart to learn choke escapes. A wise budoka will be familiar with ground fighting.

Drills and training is no different from regular stand up training. You have to learn ground Kamae, learning to be mobile on the ground, basic techniques and escapes on the ground. Disclipines of keeping balance or a good base are slightly different but only because there is now a horozontal force to deal with.

The Bujinkan aspect of it to me starts when you don't see much of a difference between standing up and being on the ground. When you stop trying to perform ground Kata and are able to move with the opponent until the opening appears and you can stop them from moving.

Marty

Posted on: 2007/11/11 17:03
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Re: groundfighting drills
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Quote:
In regards to drills my teachers have been covering this since the mid-90s. Ask Dale and Mike. Afternoons and nights on your back or on top. With rather large and unpleasant partners. So no issues on practicing against this. This is nothing new.


Well great then, since you have been doing it for so long then maybe you have something to contribute? Care to share?

~ Rob

Posted on: 2007/11/11 21:45
_________________
Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here obedient to their laws we lie.
........................................
"Come and take them!" King Leonidas' reply to Xerxes' demand the Spartans lay down their arms at the Battle of Thermopylae.
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Re: groundfighting drills
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"If you now know that many people favor going to the ground than I would focus on not going there."

Pertaining to that, I once heard a translation of soke's words(in a video) that was to the effect of, "There are people who think that you must only attack an opponent's weaknesses....Those people are stupid/have a stupid idea. In a real fight it is difficult to attack into a weakness, because they are being guarded."

It was in a Daikomyosai video, I believe. I think one from the 90's. In fact, it might have been the 1996 ken video....Do with soke's words what you will.

Thanks everyone for the ideas. For ground fighting drills, so far:

1. Shrimping drills
2. Guard/kamae transitioning drills
3. Striking drills
4. Muscle toning by using ground postures
5. Concentrating on the "negative space" when rolling to build awareness
6. Escaping from groundfighting positions

Posted on: 2007/11/11 23:33
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......Samuel Zavaletta

Please be careful not to have preconceptions, and to always remember the idea of truth-and-falsehood.
-- Hatsum
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