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Re: groundfighting drills
Cant Stay Offline
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The way I've done this is that we start from a Kata (that ends up on locking), and as the form is "gotten" we move into resisted studying, Tori trying to get the control, Uke trying to prevent it and get his own.

Posted on: 2007/11/12 1:02
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Ari Julku
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Re: groundfighting drills
Kutaki Postmaster
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Quote:

noname wrote:
"If you now know that many people favor going to the ground than I would focus on not going there."

Pertaining to that, I once heard a translation of soke's words(in a video) that was to the effect of, "There are people who think that you must only attack an opponent's weaknesses....Those people are stupid/have a stupid idea. In a real fight it is difficult to attack into a weakness, because they are being guarded."


Unsound use of the quote. I was discussing being aware of and defending against an attack strategy. That is not attacking a weakness. It is understanding the elements of the attack to train for alternate defenses and strategies and to develop good muscle memory. Groundfighting is the supposed opponents strength, unless I missed something.

As to what was done there was no specific name used. It was focused on using Taijutsu to bridge and or displace the agressor to find a favorable advantage.

Posted on: 2007/11/12 1:11
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Re: groundfighting drills
Deleted_
Good drills for what?

To become good at generic ne waza or to become good at proper taijutsu on the ground?

Two totally different beasts.

Posted on: 2007/11/12 1:19
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Re: groundfighting drills
Village Old Timer
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In our Dojo we start on feet and let the uke takes you down however he likes (he can throw you or lock you etc.)and then tries to finish you on the ground, he can punch kick, lock, whatever he wants and Tori tries to get away or get the advantage. We try to use whatever we know on bujinkan, especially we focus on Kyusho as it is easier to get it on the ground because it is not easy to move fast on the ground. When we find an opening we go for a good lock or get away technique.
I also hope that we will not again start a ''never ending'' ground fighting discussion

Posted on: 2007/11/12 1:29
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Re: groundfighting drills
Permanent Village Fixture
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"Unsound use of the quote. I was discussing being aware of and defending against an attack strategy. That is not attacking a weakness. It is understanding the elements of the attack to train for alternate defenses and strategies and to develop good muscle memory. Groundfighting is the supposed opponents strength, unless I missed something."

1. I see your point. I initially construed your statement's implication as, "We don't need to train for the ground, because we are good enough to avoid it." For me, this is a very dangerous attitude, but I guess I misunderstood your implications.

2. My initial query was from the perspective of "OK, I've been taken to the ground, so now what?" Does that make sense? (in other words, the idea of avoiding the opponents initial strategem lay outside the realm of my query)

3. Depends on your definition of defense and attack. Some arts consider the two one and the same.(defend by attacking, attack by defending). Although this idea is a separate thread entirely. European rapier fencing utilizes this idea.

4. Defending so as to expose an enemy's weakness(strategic, physical, etc.) often precedes attacking a weakness. Otherwise it's just luck that an opponent exposes a weakness. I think that implicit in soke's statement was the idea that one cannot always defend so as to expose the weakness. Sometimes the opponent is just too good for that.

Posted on: 2007/11/12 3:33
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Re: groundfighting drills
Kutaki Postmaster
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Hi:

On point 1 I agree. One needs to assess, evaluate and prepare for as many attacks, etc as possible.

On point 2 I buy that. I was merely adding in an additional perspective. The goal was not to dismiss the need to understand how to address potential challenges. I was also at a pretty cranky point when I posted that first one. Sorry if it carried through.

On point 3 no real comment per se. I can retreat and attack or attack your attack. Sounds like Sui and Ka to me. Or maybe the first one should be Fu?

On point 4 that is the challenge. Will the rat take the bait and be trapped or will the trap be empty? Per point 1 I agree you have to prepare for a canny rat, perhaps the cat as a backup.

So the important part is that we all have differing perspectives. I personally learn a lot from posts on ground fighting. More things to look at. More things to try.

This interchange, for me, embodies useful discourse. We bring out points, disagree and lead to hopefully mutual benefit and learning.

Well off to serve the canine constituencies needs.

Posted on: 2007/11/12 4:06
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Re: groundfighting drills
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Quote:

mariusz wrote:
...If you look back the threads on kutaki, you will see a lot of discussion about ground fighting and controversy. For example one opinionated guy ( the usual suspect) saying that almost everybody in the bujinkan suck at fighting on the ground comparing with BJJ.


Fine.

If anyone wants to know what groundfighting drills I use, feel free to PM me.

Quote:

mariusz wrote:
- if you have a book to read, read it on the floor in various positions to learn how to stay relaxed and at the same time maintain functional body posture. This helps to develop core muscles. Fopr example can you hold your head high for 10 minutes while laying on the ground?


The opposite muscles are more useful in ground fights. Learning to bridge is more useful than learning to hold your head up off the ground (comparatively).

Quote:

mariusz wrote:
- work on consciousness of multiple attackers. Whenever you do any ground work divide your attention between the attacker and all other space. This is a difficult thing.


Practice Practice Practice. (or Train train train). Most good groundfighters can carry on a conversation with someone else when they are fighting - you learn to feel more than see.

Quote:

mariusz wrote:
....Being tangled up with an opponent in a "superior position" is not always best for survival...


This is spot on. Great advice...

-Daniel

Posted on: 2007/11/13 2:45
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Re: groundfighting drills
Cant Stay Offline
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Quote:

Nicky690 wrote:
On point 3 no real comment per se. I can retreat and attack or attack your attack. Sounds like Sui and Ka to me. Or maybe the first one should be Fu?

Sorry, could you clarify this a bit... What sounds like Sui and Ka (and Fu)? And why?

Posted on: 2007/11/13 5:02
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Ari Julku
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Re: groundfighting drills
Permanent Village Fixture
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Quote:

TenChiJin Guy wrote:

Quote:

mariusz wrote:
- if you have a book to read, read it on the floor in various positions to learn how to stay relaxed and at the same time maintain functional body posture. This helps to develop core muscles. Fopr example can you hold your head high for 10 minutes while laying on the ground?


The opposite muscles are more useful in ground fights. Learning to bridge is more useful than learning to hold your head up off the ground (comparatively).


Please clarify, "opposite" to what? Human head has muscles "in all directions". Anyway this was just an example...

IMHO, both bridging and holding head high are useful depending upon a circumstance. For example if you are down on the ground and several guys are standing around you ready to deliver kicks... bridging would not always be a best solution? I still call that ground fighting...

Which leads me to one more thing i forgot to add to my previous posting: learn how to get up from the ground (1) without using hands for support (so you can use them to receive blows FOR EXAMPLE) or (2) using the hands in such a way that they cannot be stomped upon... I do my best to practice this every time I am an uke and I go on the ground... there is a lot of other people around in the dojo, not all of them paying attention... 'nuff said

peace
mariusz

Posted on: 2007/11/13 6:31
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Re: groundfighting drills
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Quote:

mariusz wrote:
Please clarify, "opposite" to what? Human head has muscles "in all directions". Anyway this was just an example...


Sorry - to be more clear, having strength to pull your head backwards is more important than having strength to pull it forward (comparatively). If you are going to build strength in a direction, build it that way...

Head control is paramount to Groundfighters. The more you are able to align your head, neck and spine *yes... with muscle* the better off you are down there...

Hope that helps.

-Daniel

Posted on: 2007/11/13 6:37
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