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Re: 9 ryu question
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Toruko-jin wrote:
I also think that even sometimes Samurai and Ninja looked very similar, there was a distinction between the two. This came from the lineage,religious backround and etc.

So... If we take some guy from the bushi class (i.e., a samurai) - let's call him Daisuke - whose line of work in his daimyoo's service would fall, partially or completely, in the "shinobi" category (i.e., he's a ninja)... What's the distinction???

Posted on: 2007/12/13 22:44
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Re: 9 ryu question
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Dustin wrote:
please give me a break down of the 9 ryu as far as which ones are ninjutsu schools and which ones are not.


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skuggvarg wrote:
Depends on how you look at things. I would say all 9 are related to ninjutsu (I know im gonna get fried for this one).

That doesn't really answer the question, does it?

Quote:
Dustin wrote:
ok i'm confused now. So all nine are...?

You're trying to force in boxes stuff that doesn't really fit in. I'll try an example. Take a ryuuha that has juujutsu, kenjutsu, iaijutsu, boojutsu, naginatajutsu, soojutsu, shurikenjutsu, ninjutsu, heihoo, gunbaihoo, mikkyoo (kuji etc.), hoojutsu . . . in its curriculum. Is it a "ninjutsu ryuuha" or "not a ninjutsu ryuuha"?

Posted on: 2007/12/13 23:00
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Re: 9 ryu question
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ok i think i get it. Thanks everyone.

Posted on: 2007/12/14 12:28
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Re: 9 ryu question
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Quote:

Musasabi wrote:
Quote:
Toruko-jin wrote:
I also think that even sometimes Samurai and Ninja looked very similar, there was a distinction between the two. This came from the lineage,religious backround and etc.

So... If we take some guy from the bushi class (i.e., a samurai) - let's call him Daisuke - whose line of work in his daimyoo's service would fall, partially or completely, in the "shinobi" category (i.e., he's a ninja)... What's the distinction???




Daisuke was a Samurai but later he learnt Ninjutsu and other stuff where he fled. I think we can give a better example, Hattori hanzo! He worked for Ieyasu Tokugawa and now he is accepted as a Bushi from most Japanese historians and not a Ninja (as I know). The life style, religion and the way of thinking made the Shinobi (or Ninja) different beside the skills.
There were special forces of the Daimyos worked like Ninja but they were never Ninjas, they just followed the working styles of the Shinobi.
I still think that there was a difference but not in the way they look, the way they lived was the main difference.

Mod.edit (Ôari): quotation fixed

Posted on: 2007/12/14 15:55
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Re: 9 ryu question
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Quote:

Toruko-jin wrote:
There were special forces of the Daimyos worked like Ninja but they were never Ninjas, they just followed the working styles of the Shinobi.
I still think that there was a difference but not in the way they look, the way they lived was the main difference.


Interesting, could you clarify this idea a bit more?

Posted on: 2007/12/14 18:21
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Re: 9 ryu question
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Quote:
Toruko-jin wrote:
Daisuke was a Samurai...

Sorry, I wasn't referring to Nishina Daisuke, I just wanted to call my fictious character that because I like the name.

Quote:
Toruko-jin wrote:
I think we can give a better example, Hattori hanzo! He worked for Ieyasu Tokugawa and now he is accepted as a Bushi from most Japanese historians and not a Ninja (as I know).

OK. So Hanzoo was a bushi and a ninja. So... What's the distinction between Hattori Hanzoo and... erm... Hattori Hanzoo...?

Quote:
Toruko-jin wrote:
The life style, religion and the way of thinking made the Shinobi (or Ninja) different beside the skills.
There were special forces of the Daimyos worked like Ninja but they were never Ninjas, they just followed the working styles of the Shinobi.

Dude, being a ninja was not a social class like being a bushi, it was more of a job. Ninjutsu was a name for certain warfare and intelligence skills (some of them quite ordinary by today's standards). People who specialized in these things we call "ninja". Same guys, some with (slightly) different jobs.

So, back to your Hattori example - social status: samurai - job: ninja. Distinction???

Posted on: 2007/12/14 22:24
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Re: 9 ryu question
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Depends on how you look at things. I would say all 9 are related to ninjutsu (I know im gonna get fried for this one).


That's correct. Before categorizing Bujinkan Ryuha into Ninjutsu and Non Ninjutsu I would first ask the question, what is Ninjutsu???

Mod.edit (Ôari): code changed to quote

Posted on: 2007/12/14 22:33
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Re: 9 ryu question
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Good questions by Ôari and Musasabi, I do not quote as it will be too long.
For the question of Ôari I suggest you to read ''ESSENCE OF NINJUTSU'' by Dr.Masaaki Hatsumi , especially the interview with Takamatsu Sensei (pages 17-23 ). He will be closer to the reality than me so I hope it will help. Page 23 will be the best shot for you.
About Musasabis comments;
Yes, I thought you meant Daisuke Nishina, misunderstood. On the other comment, being a Ninja was not a job! but being a spy (or Shinobi) was. That was why I wrote about others who played the Ninja, you also have your answer on the same pages.
I also did not say that it was a social class.I still say that it was a different life style.
Hanzo was a Jonin and preffered to be with Tokugawa and used Ninjas to reach his aim. I think he helped the country to be in peace but it is arguable if he helped Ninjas or started their downfall.

Posted on: 2007/12/14 23:10
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Re: 9 ryu question
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Toruko-jin wrote:
On the other comment, being a Ninja was not a job! but being a spy (or Shinobi) was.

Ninja is a (mostly 1900's) synonym for the earlier shinobi, kanja, suppa etc... Where did you get that distinction??

Quote:
Toruko-jin wrote:
That was why I wrote about others who played the Ninja, you also have your answer on the same pages.

I think you need to make a distinction between what Hatsumi-sensei and Takamatsu-sensei personally think makes a "decent ninja", and who was historically called a ninja (or by another synonym).

Quote:
Toruko-jin wrote:
I also did not say that it was a social class.I still say that it was a different life style.

How exactly?

Quote:
Toruko-jin wrote:
Hanzo was a Jonin and preffered to be with Tokugawa and used Ninjas to reach his aim. I think he helped the country to be in peace but it is arguable if he helped Ninjas or started their downfall.

Which ninja would that be?

OT - was there really ever such a thing as "joonin"? Togakure no ninja by Shimizu Torazoo says that a couple of the largest bodies (Iga-ryuu and Kooga-ryuu) used such hierarchy, yet for example Ninpiden (a densho said to contain Hattori Hanzoo's own teachings!) makes no mention of such ranks. It seems quite likely to me they were just invented afterwards...

Posted on: 2007/12/15 1:46
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Re: 9 ryu question
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Toruko-jin wrote:
For the question of Ôari I suggest you to read ''ESSENCE OF NINJUTSU'' by Dr.Masaaki Hatsumi , especially the interview with Takamatsu Sensei (pages 17-23 ). He will be closer to the reality than me so I hope it will help. Page 23 will be the best shot for you.


Thanks, I'll read it asap.

Posted on: 2007/12/15 2:40
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