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Hehehe...3
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I suppose I was insinuating that the last three of the Ha-jutsu (happo'geri, ken-kudaki and keri-kudaki) were similar in that they seem to stem from Kukishin-Ryu' or Kukishin-den...

Citing kata from other schools just doesn't match... And to say that it doesn't matter if they come from a specific school would be like guessing that the Ten-Chi-Jin Ryaku no Maki is just a hodge podge of katas put together by name and not substance... Mr. Manaka (who holds menkyo' kaiden and actually felt Takamatsu-sensei's taijutsu, stated that the TCJRNM was a stroke of genius on Sensei's part)

Posted on: 2008/1/12 19:08
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Re: Hehehe...3
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Quote:

JamesGarcia wrote:
I suppose I was insinuating that the last three of the Ha-jutsu (happo'geri, ken-kudaki and keri-kudaki) were similar in that they seem to stem from Kukishin-Ryu' or Kukishin-den...


You mean looking at the Taijutsu that is used, or something else?

Looking at the Waza itself, without thinking about the underlying Ryûgi Taijutsu...

The kicks in Happô Keri can be IMHO found in a few schools, Ken Kudaki also in Gyokko-ryû, and in Keri Kudaki there's Gyokko- and Takagi Yôshin-ryû like Wazas in addition to the old Kukishinden Taijutsu.

But, it naturally depends on how one does them.

Quote:

JamesGarcia continued:
...like guessing that the Ten-Chi-Jin Ryaku no Maki is just a hodge podge of katas put together by name and not substance... Mr. Manaka (who holds menkyo' kaiden and actually felt Takamatsu-sensei's taijutsu, stated that the TCJRNM was a stroke of genius on Sensei's part)


I personally see the TCJRnM as Kihon-Waza-Kata threesome, though not clearly divided like that between the three sections.

Put together by name... this I don't get, sorry... Or are you referring to the order the things are in the manual?

Posted on: 2008/1/13 4:04
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Hehehe...
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I was speaking on Mr O'ari's reference as something being part of the 'Bujinkan building blocks-Set'...

Would you call the Kihon Happo' section in Ten ryaku no maki as being a hodge podge of waza from different Ryu' as opposed to an actual section from Gyokko-Ryu'???

Ko'-Goroshi and Oya-Goroshi are taught as being from Takagi-Youshin-Ryu'... Knowing the connection between Kukishin-Ryu and Takagi Yo'shin-Ryu', what if the entire Hajutsu section was only Takagi or Kuki?

Te-hodoki is included in every school of Ju'jutsu as far reaching and different as Aikido'... Knowing the influence of other schools outside of the So'ke-ships from Takamatsu Sensei... Citing Asayama Ichi-den, Boku-den and Kukishin-Ryu' schools (of which Hatsumi Sensei holds Menkyo' Kaiden in as well)... What if the section does come from one school... If from Takagi Yo'shin... How would that influence anyone's teaching of said school?

And yeah!!! the Cowboys lost!

Posted on: 2008/1/14 13:21
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Re: Hehehe...
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Quote:

JamesGarcia wrote:
Would you call the Kihon Happo' section in Ten ryaku no maki as being a hodge podge of waza from different Ryu' as opposed to an actual section from Gyokko-Ryu'???


Doesn't Gyokko-ryû name the set it has differently? Also isn't it 6+10 forms? And aren't some of them a bit different from the way they are in Kihon Happô?

Quote:

JamesGarcia continued:
Ko'-Goroshi and Oya-Goroshi are taught as being from Takagi-Youshin-Ryu'... Knowing the connection between Kukishin-Ryu and Takagi Yo'shin-Ryu', what if the entire Hajutsu section was only Takagi or Kuki?


Yes... maybe continue with this thought a bit more, please...?

Quote:

JamesGarcia and concluded:
What if the section does come from one school... If from Takagi Yo'shin... How would that influence anyone's teaching of said school?


If one wanted to look at it from a clearly that school's perspective then that school's Taijutsu would most likely be used more precisely?

But, isn't Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki the guide to Bujinkan Budô Taijutsu, not to the nine different schools?

Posted on: 2008/1/15 11:21
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Re: Hehehe...
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Quote:

Ôari wrote:

But, isn't Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki the guide to Bujinkan Budô Taijutsu...


No, it really isn't despite people holding on to that myth for so long...

Posted on: 2008/1/15 11:48
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Re: Hehehe...
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...so, what is it?

Posted on: 2008/1/15 18:29
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Re: Haho Keri
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It is someting Soke put together for the original students as they kept asking him for a list of things to help them teach.

From my understanding it was never meant to be this syllabus that alot of people turned it into over the years. It simply was a training aid created a long time ago.

Honestly, if Soke meant for it to be some guidebook for the Bujinkan don't you think he would have made it more available through the years? Not to mention would he have stopped selling it to Shidoshi many years ago?

Don't get me wrong, it has its place just not on the pedastal a lot of people put it on in my opinion.

Posted on: 2008/1/16 2:38
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Re: Haho Keri
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Ah, that's what you were referring to Though, as you say it, too, it is used as a "Bujinkan-manual", so...

Posted on: 2008/1/16 6:19
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Hehehe...
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Interesting thread drift...

Of course, I don't agree with you Mr. Jeff, but I think we have argued this over the years as I have been one of the largest supporters for the Ten-Chi-Jin Ryaku no Maki as the standard Bujinkan Curriculum, because that was how it was presented to me.

Almost everyone except those who studied under Mr. Hayes' Godai Curriculum were following the TCJRNM in the 80's, including the Japanese and especially those in Europe. You see it's influence amongst the Shi-Tenno instructors in Europe.

This was the book that the Japanese Shihan would refer to when asked to teach something and still do to this day. Interestingly enough, At the last Taikai 2003 in New Jersey, we stopped using the Kata from Jutte-jutsu Juppo' Sessho' and began going through many of the Kata from the Jin Ryaku no Maki... Nagato Sensei used this book and was in charge of picking the techniques and showing them to Ju'dan before they went up to demonstrate. The Kata we did follows the order of the Jin Ryaku... Check it out...

Hatsumi Sensei's book, 'Togakure-Ryu' Ninpo'-Taijutsu' (1983) loosely follows the Ten-Chi-Jin format. The book has more information and sections that correlate almost exactly following the information in the original TCJRNM.

The video 'KouBudou No KiHon' contains information from the Ten Ryaku no Maki... while the video 'Budo'-to-wa-NaniKa' follows information contained in the Chi Ryaku no Maki.

I may be wrong, but I have a strong suspicion that Sensei's new book will follow the Jin Ryaku no Maki... But this is pure speculation on my part.

But to each his own... There are a number that do not give importance to the TCJRNM... But as I previously stated, I do because that was how I was taught.

Posted on: 2008/1/16 19:07
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Hehehe...
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I'll mention once again, It is not as important to know where any specific thing comes from, this is pure speculation on my part and should be thought of as such. Just talking out loud.

Mr Ari... This brings up an interesting point... The wording of all the Kata are unique by schools in some ways... Different names for similar movements and the same Kyu'sho... This has always made me suspect that the wording in the TCJRNM may be from the original Densho'.

The Kihon Happo' in this respect are very open in the descriptions of the Waza, that they could be demonstrated in differing ways yet still be correct. This is obvious when comparing the demonstrations of the differing Waza in the 'Kobudo' no Kihon' video and the Quest Gyokko-Ryu' Kihon Happo's. The last pair for instance does not say Ganseki-Nage, but rather states to turn the left leg backwards for a Gyaku-Nage. This is can also be describing the Gyokko-Ryu' armbar waza.

As for the number of techniques, the Hoshu' or Torite-Gata are numbered 1 to 5 with the last phrase being 'Left Technique.' Same for the Koshi Kihon Sanpo', 1 to 3 with 'Left Technique' added.

It's been 23 years since I bought my first copy of Sensei's book, so give me a break, hehe...

Posted on: 2008/1/16 19:42
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