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Re: Dan Shu
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I've seen more than one shihan do hon gyaku with the kick at the end of Renyo, instead of an omote gyaku.....

Posted on: 2008/8/25 0:15
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Re: Dan Shu
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Yeah, I have too. It doesn't necessarily mean it is correct...

Posted on: 2008/8/25 10:34
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Re: Dan Shu
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Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
Yeah, I have too. It doesn't necessarily mean it is correct...



Which is the crux of the matter isn't it. The whole trap with kata is the thought that there is only one way to do them. One critical point. One most important part.

It all depends on what aspect of training you are looking at, where you are in your training, who you are learning from.

Marty

Posted on: 2008/8/25 13:46
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Re: Dan Shu
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Quote:

mrdunsky wrote:
Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
Yeah, I have too. It doesn't necessarily mean it is correct...



Which is the crux of the matter isn't it. The whole trap with kata is the thought that there is only one way to do them. One critical point. One most important part.

It all depends on what aspect of training you are looking at, where you are in your training, who you are learning from.

Marty


Yes, This is the point where you step in to become a ''Kata collector'' I think. A wider step, a deeper punch or any other movement can totally change the Kata so there can be thousands of doing it but still with the same spirit.

Posted on: 2008/8/25 16:56
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Re: Dan Shu
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Yes, This is the point where you step in to become a ''Kata collector'' I think.


Is i?. More of a Kata purist I suppose. I do believe you need to do the original kata the way it was thought out to be (including the original henka if there are any). Once you have understood/mastered that, you can move away from the kata and you can freely use parts from it in other scenarios.

But, if you do not learn these points it may be alltogether meaningless to study the kata in the first place. You could just as well have come up with your own movement.

Budo is deep. Lost of information is hidden within each kata. Only by digging into it will the meaning become clear. Thats my opinion at least.


The way I´ve done Dan Shu is with the muso dori type of lock on the elbow (like some others indicated).

Regards / Skuggvarg

Posted on: 2008/8/25 18:52
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Re: Dan Shu
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Quote:

skuggvarg wrote:

Is i?. More of a Kata purist I suppose. I do believe you need to do the original kata the way it was thought out to be.


Okay, that is the whole point. The kata are written rather vaguely in the densho (so I have been told by several who have seen them). It is how Soke chooses to interpret them that day that he shows the kata. The many subtle changes in the Videos and his books do not betray the "right way" to do it. We now have his new book which will become the "official" way of doing the kata, so all of those who were doing it differently before will have to adapt - or find the hidden core that doesn't change!

Marty

Posted on: 2008/8/25 20:55
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Re: Dan Shu
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The translation says:

Quote:
With the right foot kick into the opponent's left leg, creating takeori, and with the right hand reverse choke.


The original Japanese says:

Quote:
右足にて敵の左足を竹折りに蹴り込み、右手で逆を締める。


A clearer translation might be:

With the right foot kick into the enemy's leg with (the principle of) takeori. Tighten the gyaku with the right hand.

The original translation is generally correct I think but it isn't clear in the way the Japanese is in the take ori being applied to the opponents leg as you are tightning your control on the arm. The adding of "the principle of" or "in the way of" was suggested by my wife, a native Japanese speaker, who doesn't know Bujinkan techniques but just took that addition from the sentance structure.

Posted on: 2008/8/25 21:36
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Re: Dan Shu
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Quote:

skuggvarg wrote:
Quote:
Yes, This is the point where you step in to become a ''Kata collector'' I think.


Is i?. More of a Kata purist I suppose. I do believe you need to do the original kata the way it was thought out to be (including the original henka if there are any). Once you have understood/mastered that, you can move away from the kata and you can freely use parts from it in other scenarios.

But, if you do not learn these points it may be alltogether meaningless to study the kata in the first place. You could just as well have come up with your own movement.

Budo is deep. Lost of information is hidden within each kata. Only by digging into it will the meaning become clear. Thats my opinion at least.


The way I´ve done Dan Shu is with the muso dori type of lock on the elbow (like some others indicated).

Regards / Skuggvarg


I totally agree with most of your points. Ofcourse you need to know the original Kata form to go on to the Henkas, still please see Japanese Shihans doing it many different ways. I also know the basic with Muso Dori like you do.
You should know the Kata but not to be very strict with the basic form I think and I also believe this is what Soke wants us to do, at least if you are training for reality. I can understand you if you say that you train this art as an ''art'' so you really do it basic and nice way. I preffer to train it more realistic combat so need to think of many many different attacks and possibilities. That is why the feeling of it makes more sense in my kind of training but I do not say that mine is wright and yours is wrong I just try to see the difference in understanding and it is good to see different approaches.
Think of the numbers of Katas in Bujinkan... Maybe I choose the easy way and will be happy to get your opinion, more
Thank you very much.

Posted on: 2008/8/25 22:53
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Re: Dan Shu
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Quote:
Think of the numbers of Katas in Bujinkan...


Yes, there is an amazing amount of kata in the Bujinkan. One school would be enough for most of us to study I suppose. But this does not change the underlying principles behind kata me thinks.

Its not the number of kata but rather how effectively you can master the principles in them.

I agree with you that effectiveness is better than just training for perserving purposes. However for something to be used effectively in a fight I think you have to have it in your spine so to speak. Only way to get it there is repetition as far as I know. So that does not contradict training the kata.

Regards / Skuggvarg

Posted on: 2008/8/25 23:32
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Re: Dan Shu
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Well guys,

first of all I want to thank everybody for taking part in the discussion. Personally I think this is a wonderful thread, like a thread should be on a forum like that. We do concentrate on a topic, but also get into discussing the subject of kata in general - and there´s no flaming.

Then I´m extremely grateful to Duncan for the translation, since I´m not able to read nor speak japanese. It lightens up some points.

I´m actually fully aware of the fact that there are thousands of factors who might influence the actual outcome of a kata as well as one has to be able to adapt. But then it is a kata and it has to have a basic form, that is the form I seek.

Most of us do not know what´s really written in the documents Soke possesses, so it´s rather speculative. I´m also tended to believe that the original description is rather concise and leaves out many detailes which might lead into discussion. So it´d be very neat if we knew what´s written there and what´s actually not written there (and by that open to discussion), because the last might be what has to be adapted to the situation.

However, I think no-one here can answer that question

So I summarize, the hand/wrist lock, might be an hongyaku, muso dori or omote gyaku, while something like a take ori is applied to the ankle. Which is just making ukes body to shift that way that the ankle gets bend and hurts/breaks (in my opinion).

That leaves actually the question what happens to the gripping hand, it has to be in some kind of lock. Hon gyaku seems to fit best in my eyes, since theres no need for changing the grip.

Posted on: 2008/8/25 23:41
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