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Christianity and Bujinkan?
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Next newbie question, since I've been out for a while. My old instructor was under S.K. Hayes and I know Mr. Hayes has a significant amount of religious activity in his training methodology that does not coincide with Christianity. Is the same thing true, in general, in Bujinkan dojos? Or do the Bujinkan efforts deal more with philosophy and leave religion up to the individual?

Leam

Posted on: 2008/10/1 1:50
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Re: Christianity and Bujinkan?
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The late pope John-Paul II and Hatsumi Sensei seem not see any significant conflicts between Bujinkan and Christianity:

http://winjutsu.com/papal-award.htm
Hope that clears the things up a bit.

Instead of further comments, I respectfully contemplate the message from the Authorities mentioned above.

Almost all the dojos I have been to (except one) were not religion-heavy. Quite the contrary they were tolerant and sensitive to any religion including the atheism.

My attitude to religion heavy dojo is: I excuse myself to the restroom, exit through the window and (respectfully) run like hell.

peace
mn

Posted on: 2008/10/1 6:57
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Mariusz
San Francisco Bujinkan Dojo
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Re: Christianity and Bujinkan?
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Thanks Mario!

I agree, a religion heavy dojo is, well, not quite right in my mind. Even one of my own religion because it insulates us from all the training partners that may need to interact with us.

Discussion of serious topics is tough, some times, without touching on religion. The selection of a teacher/dojo is just as difficult as the acceptance of a student. The teacher needs to be able to evaluate me with basic things like "Is this guy a nutcase who has watched too much Chuck Norris?" My evaluation is no less stringent; a good teacher shapes the student in many ways and I want to relax and let the teacher do his or her work, knowing that what I will be influenced with is something I would want.

So far I've seen nothing that causes me worry. The discussions on this forum have been helpful and constructive. The senior student I talked to yesterday seemed earnest in his desire to learn and no mumbo-jumbo was included. I think we're going to train some Thursday so that will be a next step.

Leam

Posted on: 2008/10/1 10:38
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Re: Christianity and Bujinkan?
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I reckon though that more than a few of us with Athestic leanings (or tentative sympathies with Buddhist/Daoist concepts) are guilty of putting Soke in exactly the same place in our hearts as relgious folks do with their leaders, e.g. the Pope, the Dalai Lama, Ayatollah, Guru etc etc.

The question is how many people admit it.

And how frightened they are of the 'cult' label, or the negative use of it, I mean there is nothing wrong with a cult if it's maxim is honourable and does not demand that its members exclude themselves from their family and society, plus that song 'Lil Devil' is probably my second favourite song of all time next to 'People are Strange'.

Seriously though, many people go through the formal rei with different thoughts in mind, perhaps based on their own beliefs etc and there are even people who murmur "Chicken Harry Mitts You Dyke Ohm Yo" or suchlike.

Religion is about more than bowing, temple jars, statues of long dead Indian Princes and Tibetan-esque brass copies of artefacts from the local head shop.

My girlfriend's aunt is a nun, who many years ago was ordered to bow in front of Idi Amin which would have been forbidden from her faith's point of view. She told her sisters that when they were in front of him they were to imagine he was not there and that they were in Mass. She would then quietly say "Let us pray" and they would kneel, thus he would be none the wiser. It worked a treat.

Posted on: 2008/10/1 22:17
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Re: Christianity and Bujinkan?
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Quote:

ElfTengu wrote:
My girlfriend's aunt is a nun, who many years ago was ordered to bow in front of Idi Amin which would have been forbidden from her faith's point of view. She told her sisters that when they were in front of him they were to imagine he was not there and that they were in Mass. She would then quietly say "Let us pray" and they would kneel, thus he would be none the wiser. It worked a treat.



I'm sure Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah would not have approved that.
Barry

Posted on: 2008/10/2 2:59
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Can you strike the wind?
Caressed by the wind I talk with it.
Can you throw the earth?
Nourished by the earth, I cultivate it.
Can you grapple with the fire?
Warmed by the fire I feed it.
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Re: Christianity and Bujinkan?
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I am a Presbyterian Deacon who has trained solely in the Bujinkan for a few years. I would be happy to privately discuss how I view my training in the Bujinkan as it relates to Christian teachings, if I understand your question correctly. The dojo where I train is not religion specific but we do discuss some of Souke's spiritual teachings from time to time.

Thanks
George Hagelauer
Bujinkan Happo Dojo

Posted on: 2008/10/2 8:59
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George Hagelauer
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Re: Christianity and Bujinkan?
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I appreciate the community everyone has shown; that in itself helps me feel more comfortable about things. When I first started training we did the bow, clap, and bow thing and it took me a bit to get comfortable with that. Once someone explained what we were saying and knowing that bowing is a cultural thing, I didn't really have any issue with it.

I like the nun story, it shows a good bit of survival sense! :)

Leam

Posted on: 2008/10/2 10:08
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Re: Christianity and Bujinkan?
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Quote:

Barry wrote:
Quote:

ElfTengu wrote:
My girlfriend's aunt is a nun, who many years ago was ordered to bow in front of Idi Amin which would have been forbidden from her faith's point of view. She told her sisters that when they were in front of him they were to imagine he was not there and that they were in Mass. She would then quietly say "Let us pray" and they would kneel, thus he would be none the wiser. It worked a treat.



I'm sure Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah would not have approved that.
Barry


Are they her judges?

S

Posted on: 2008/10/2 10:17
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Re: Christianity and Bujinkan?
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Quote:

kouryuu wrote:
Quote:

Barry wrote:
Quote:

ElfTengu wrote:
My girlfriend's aunt is a nun, who many years ago was ordered to bow in front of Idi Amin which would have been forbidden from her faith's point of view. She told her sisters that when they were in front of him they were to imagine he was not there and that they were in Mass. She would then quietly say "Let us pray" and they would kneel, thus he would be none the wiser. It worked a treat.



I'm sure Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah would not have approved that.
Barry


Are they her judges?

S


Exactly , no one can get into between you and the all mighty! If you let people get between than you will be worshipping to people not God.


I also want to add sth. ElfTengu wrote:
''I reckon though that more than a few of us with Athestic leanings (or tentative sympathies with Buddhist/Daoist concepts) are guilty of putting Soke in exactly the same place in our hearts as relgious folks do with their leaders, e.g. the Pope, the Dalai Lama, Ayatollah, Guru etc etc.''

I believe the same with you, just want to add that there is no religious leadership or religious class in Islam (like pope, etc..), this is also another misconception pumping to western world (like, Islam = Terrorism). Just a bonus information.
Thank you

Posted on: 2008/10/2 17:50
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Re: Christianity and Bujinkan?
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Quote:

Toruko-jin wrote:

Exactly , no one can get into between you and the all mighty! If you let people get between than you will be worshipping to people not God.


I agree wi Ercan (this point was laready made in another thread by him and me some time ago). However I owuld like to add, that this is the point at which you can be when you are already an "evolved person". Now, to get there most people probably rely on elders / mentors / role_models / leadership / tradition. Only selected few are born with direct channel to the Almighty open up wide.

As for myself, even when i evolved quite a bit, I have several people I VERY MUCH RESPECT and find them a constant inspiration for my personal growth. I do not see anything wrong with it because the way I approach it is far from cult and dogmatism.

Quote:

I believe the same with you, just want to add that there is no religious leadership or religious class in Islam (like pope, etc..), this is also another misconception pumping to western world (like, Islam = Terrorism). Just a bonus information.
Thank you


Hey Ercan, I hope you can explain this "no leadership" thing a bit more to me when we meet - I hope to meet you finally at DKMS this year.

As to the terrorists, I believe that most of them are lost souls who are led and confused by evil people. It is unfortunate that "religion" is used for that but I guess this is "the nature of the beasts".
Oh My God! you mean there are no women waiting for them in the paradise after they kill innocent by-standers while killing themselves? If only they would know that... that is a vital piece of recon they are missing when going into action.

peace on Earth!
mn

Posted on: 2008/10/3 3:57
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Mariusz
San Francisco Bujinkan Dojo
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