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"jutsu" or "jitsu"?
Just Passing Through
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Hello,

I've been wondering about it since the beginning but never really put more thoughts into it.

What is the corect way to write: "jutsu" or "jitsu"?
How is it pronounced in words like "ninjutsu" or "jujutsu"?
One more question: jujutsu or jiujiutsu, jiu-jiutsu, jiujiutsu, jijitsu,... etc.?

Thanks!

Posted on: 2003/8/31 21:03
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Re: "jutsu" or "jitsu"?
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Hi,

the only thing I can say is:

jutsu means skill/art
jitsu means truth (AFAIK)

so ninjutsu or jujutsu is correct.

many people from the west understand "ninjitsu" when a japanese say "ninjutsu", cuz the u is pronounced in an other way than in usa for example, it's like the german "ü".

but i dont know what the difference between jiu and jujutsu is. sorry

i hope thats all right, if not, please correct me :)

Posted on: 2003/8/31 21:26
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Karasu Tengu Gruppe
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Re:
Just Passing Through
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Quote:
jutsu means skill/art
jitsu means truth (AFAIK)


Yes, I think you're wright. I think that's the reason why some people make a distinction between "ninjutsu" and "ninjitsu", meaning one being the art in a physicall sense, the other in a philosophical sense, but I'm not really sure how true is this really.

Quote:
many people from the west understand "ninjitsu" when a japanese say "ninjutsu"


Yes, I know what you mean. Japanese pronounce something like [nindz'cu] ("u" is silent), and the accent is on "nin".

Thanks!

Posted on: 2003/8/31 23:40
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Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda, 33.rd Soke of Togakure Ryu
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Kutaki Postmaster
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hi there,
there is, at least linguistically, no difference between the two. ju can be written with two hiragana characters: a big ji and a small yu that turns the i-sound into a u-sound.
the difference is that at least some people in europe seem to refer to koryu style fighting as jiu-jutsu and to the modern version with ju-jutsu.

hth
karsten

Posted on: 2003/9/1 7:46
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karsten helmholz

bujinkan shinden dojo buchholz/hh
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Quote:

kabutoki wrote:
hi there,
there is, at least linguistically, no difference between the two. ju can be written with two hiragana characters: a big ji and a small yu that turns the i-sound into a u-sound.
the difference is that at least some people in europe seem to refer to koryu style fighting as jiu-jutsu and to the modern version with ju-jutsu.

hth
karsten


With a big Ji and a small yu though, you run into the problem of confusing it with words like Jiyuu ("freedom"). The Japanese use two (main) romaji methods, one which would transliterate the "ju" of jujutsu" as "ju", and the other which would render it as "jyu", not "jiyu" or "jiu".

"Jiu" is not used (in Japanese systems) to render "ju". As far as I always thought, "jiu" was just a bastardization promoted by people who didn't really know what they were talking about. On the other hand, I know little about transliteration methods for European languages, so it could hold valid for those.

Regarding jitsu / jutsu, jutsu means "skill, art, technique" as mentioned above. To say that "ninjitsu" is promoting the "fact" or "truth" side of the art is really stretching it, imo, and leads to confusion.

"Jitsu" is used in terms like "kyo-jitsu" (falsehood / truth), although many people mistakenly render it as "kyo-jutsu", assuming that the second half just refers to "skill, art, technique" as mentioned above. Incorrect, in this case.

Shawn

Posted on: 2003/9/1 17:48
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Re: "jutsu" or "jitsu"?
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I'll try one by one.


Quote:
What is the corect way to write: "jutsu" or "jitsu"?


If you mean '術', it should be spelled as 'jutsu' (じゅつ).
If you mean '実', it should be spelled as 'jitsu' (じつ).
(As for the meanings of each Kanji, please consult a dictionary by yourself.)


Quote:
How is it pronounced in words like "ninjutsu" or "jujutsu"?


It is pronounced as 'jutsu' by most people now but some (older) people may pronounce it as 'jitsu'. In addition, this may depend on the district too. That's why Soke can enjoy his 'play on words' more easily than younger people like me.

cf. 'Jutte' has been pronounced as 'Jitte' by many people.

This often makes a confusion among those who don't know Japanese well. In fact, the spelling (Kana writing) of a word does not always show its exact pronuncitaion even in Japanese. I think we should be careful of this fact.

ex.) 'Alumin(i)um' is written as 'アルミニウム' (aruminium) but usually pronounced as 'アルミニューム' (aruminyuumu).


Quote:
jujutsu or jiujiutsu, jiu-jiutsu, jiujiutsu, jijitsu,... etc.?


'Jujutsu' looks best to me if you mean '柔術' but it is English-speaking people's business how you spell it in English.

The Japanese language has 3 Romaji systems -- Nihon-shiki, Kunrei-shiki, Hebon-shiki -- but English way is equal to none of them.
('jy' is just a wrong way done by those who don't know the Romaji systems well, FYI.)


HTH.


Posted on: 2003/9/2 1:21
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hi shawn,
i am aware of the transcription methods. i wrote "with two hiragana characters" to show where the error comes from. it´s like you take out a hiragana table and look all characters up for themselves. this way you ignore the size of the characters and stuff like "jiu" or "jiyu" comes out.

karsten

Posted on: 2003/9/2 4:42
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karsten helmholz

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Kyojitsu Tenkan Ho
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Shawn,

real quick side track if you don't mind:

Quote:
"Jitsu" is used in terms like "kyo-jitsu" (falsehood / truth),


In kyojitsu Tenkan Ho Does it break down as:

fasehood/truth, "tenkan as in the flip" meaning to turn over and ho as in way. So the way of flipping/turning over truth and falsehood ?

Thanks!

Posted on: 2003/9/2 14:55
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Re: Kyojitsu Tenkan Ho
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Rich,

I basically would agree with your break-down as above, only I personally would use a word like "interplay" or "interchange" instead of "flipping" (although that may be a technically closer translation). With a flip/flop, you still have either one option or the other. With kyojitsu, my feeling is that while it is sometimes the case that you are showing falsehood while really doing/meaning truth, there are also other cases where what you are doing is both falsehood and truth at the same time. I don't really believe in a fine line between falsehood and truth. I think its more of a gradation. How much of gradation depends on tori, uke, and everyone else.

Shawn

Posted on: 2003/9/3 1:28
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Thanks Shawn

Posted on: 2003/9/3 2:46
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Rick Ray
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