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Re: Buji Rules?
村長 :: Sonchou
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Quote:

noname wrote:
Takamatsu sensei trained under more than one master.

Hatsumi sensei trained under more than one master.


....what does this tell us?


Watch the Quest DVD about Takamatsu Sensei....

Posted on: 2008/12/14 2:37
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Jan Ramboer
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‘It is only when the eyes and the brain get exhausted that there are no lies and you can get the truth’ Thomas Hirschhorn
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Re: Buji Rules?
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Personally, I wouldn't stop any Genbukan or Jinenkan or anybody else from coming in to train with me as long as they observe some simple rules:

1. Soke Hatsumi is the Soke of the Bujinkan and my classes are Bujinkan classes only.

2. How we do things may be different than you and that's ok, but please show respect by only doing what I teach - not what you know or what your teacher teaches.

3. Trying to add things or perspectives from your org during class only confuses things and strays from what I'm trying to do. Save it for after class.

4. Out of respect for my Soke, I do not have any interest to train in anything those x-kans have to offer, nor will I allow any teaching from those x-kans in my Bujinkan class.

Basically, if someone from another org wishes to train with me, that's cool. But, I don't wish to train with any other org - not out of disrespect to that org or it's founder, but out of respect for the Soke of my org.

But, if that person wishes to "chase two hares" by training in my Bujinkan class, that's up to them. Eventually, they will end up making a choice of which direction to go, anyway.

All orgs have wonderful students. It's not about them. It's about the heads of those orgs and the relationships between them. It is a mature respectfulness to be sensitive to that when deciding with whom or with what dojo to train with.

That's it, plain and simple.

Posted on: 2008/12/14 3:22
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Darren Dumas

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Buji Rules?
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You are aware of the post on the Bujinkan Hombu & Ayase webpage?

Quote:
There might be a few Bujinkan rules that are not documented on the Internet (whether accidentally or purposely). So please be very careful when you say "The rule must be just a rumor because it is not mentioned either on the H/A website or on bujinkan.com." or anything like that. Please consult your Shihan first before you rely on the Internet too much. I hope most of those who often visit Japan (and speak with me) are familiar with the rules.


Amusing that the very same Internet is the medium for a message about not relying on the Internet for information.

Posted on: 2008/12/15 11:30
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Re: Buji Rules?
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If you train in the Bujinkan you are not allowed to train in the Jinenkan at all. If you feel you have the "right" to train with both you don't.

To the gentleman who says he's stated he a member of the Jinenkan and anyone else who "chases two hares" let me know when you're next in Japan
and I'll personally help translate.

If you have no plans to train in Japan don't hesitate to send me your name and address to forward to the Hombu.

Be well and remember who won the race between the hare and the tortoise...

Mike

Posted on: 2008/12/15 16:03
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Re: Buji Rules?
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Quote:

JanRa wrote:
Quote:

noname wrote:
Takamatsu sensei trained under more than one master.

Hatsumi sensei trained under more than one master.


....what does this tell us?


Watch the Quest DVD about Takamatsu Sensei....




I think I know what you are talking about.....when Hatsumi sensei says that he felt that all his time with other teachers was wasted......What if Hatsumi sensei had said to himself: "Out of respect for my other teachers I will not go out and train with this Mr. Takamatsu." ?........to me that sort of puts things in a new light......



Quote:

Erizabesu wrote:

Amusing that the very same Internet is the medium for a message about not relying on the Internet for information.




I think it's part of the joke.


Quote:

Papa-san wrote:

Depending on your level of understanding, why would you train with the "student" while the master is still teaching??? Manaka san is a fine gentleman and he learned his art from Dr Hatsumi, but now he has gone his own way. The "master", Dr Hatsumi is still growing, learning and teaching things based on that learning and continued growth. As always the choice is the individual's as are the results that come from that choice. It is important to choose well.



I can think of more than one reason Mr. Martin, including the absence of a good Bujinkan teacher in the area.

Also, I've found that having multiple credible sources for learning something can be a very good thing.


Quote:

Nodakko wrote:

If you train in the Bujinkan you are not allowed to train in the Jinenkan at all. If you feel you have the "right" to train with both you don't.



Says who? You?


Quote:

Nodakko wrote:
Be well and remember who won the race between the hare and the tortoise...


Are you comparing Manaka sensei to a tortoise?


Quote:

Darren wrote:

All orgs have wonderful students. It's not about them. It's about the heads of those orgs and the relationships between them. It is a mature respectfulness to be sensitive to that when deciding with whom or with what dojo to train with.



Let's look at this another way: If I was a low level employee in a mutltinational coffee corporation and my company's president hates the president of Starbucks, would it be acceptable for me to drink Starbucks coffee? I say yes......however, if I was my company president's secretary, I would probably not drink Starbucks coffee regularly......

Posted on: 2008/12/15 23:01
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Please be careful not to have preconceptions, and to always remember the idea of truth-and-falsehood.
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Re: Buji Rules?
Active Kutakian
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Quote:

Darren wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't stop any Genbukan or Jinenkan or anybody else from coming in to train with me as long as they observe some simple rules:

...snip...


Darren's notes are pretty good. I'd like to train with as many folks as I can and the instructor should expect me to be polite to them, their students, and their instructor.

Leam

Posted on: 2008/12/16 0:00
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Leam Hall
Ne'er do well, Red Hat engineer for hire, and all around nice guy...
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Re: Buji Rules?
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Samuel, I recognize the difficulty of no trained or acceptable Bujinkan instructor in the area, but that only means one must do more to get the training. When I started there was no one in my area either. Sometime a person does need to chose "who will I train with". That doesn't preclude seeing and learning about other arts or experiencing other instructors, but one does need to know where 'home' is. I have seen so many flit from one art to another always chasing the holy grail only to think it in another place after a few months. Please understand that I would never tell another person "don't train with that person or in that art". What I would say is this is what you will likely get from there based on my own experience and knowledge. I have good friends who switched to the Jinenkan and I still value them although I think they made a poor choice. It was their choice to make. They and others are always welcome in my classes, why? Because how can they re-evaluate their choice it they are denied any other way? Sensei has always given a second chance and often third and fourth one too.

Posted on: 2008/12/16 1:20
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Ed Martin aka Papa-san
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Re: Buji Rules?
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Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
Sensei has always given a second chance and often third and fourth one too.



So... couldn't this be read in a way, that it's ok to break the rules, as one will be forgiven anyway...?


Posted on: 2008/12/16 6:00
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Ari Julku
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Re: Buji Rules?
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I could be off but didn't Soke say something about there being "no more forgiveness" for 10th dans and higher in 2007. Something about a 10th demon shogun "kuki taisho".

Sorry if thats out of context.

as for the original post I'd say that if training in the Jinenkan is you path, why change it? There are philosophy differences between the organizations that could interfere with training. Pick one and stay with it.

Posted on: 2008/12/16 6:50
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Re: Buji Rules?
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Quote:

noname wrote:
Let's look at this another way: If I was a low level employee in a mutltinational coffee corporation and my company's president hates the president of Starbucks, would it be acceptable for me to drink Starbucks coffee? I say yes......however, if I was my company president's secretary, I would probably not drink Starbucks coffee regularly......


Maybe so and I know there are plenty of "low level" Bujinkan practitioners who train in all sorts of things which would probably not be in their best interests, but do so anyway.

In your example, however, it could be an issue if you were looking to actually move up in that company. I mean, imagine your promotion interview and somebody in that panel had just seen you standing outside drinking a Starbuck's Vente Mocha Frap...

Although, this example is very limited. A multinational corp headed by a President is far different from the deeply personal matter of Sokeship. Coffee (or any other product) is also entirely insignificant and shallow compared to the training relationships of the Bujinkan and connections to Soke.

It's the difference between living as a Bujinkan martial artist and one who just trains in Bujinkan martial arts. The first is focused on the relationship, the connection. The other is focused on the material, the techniques.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, I stand by my "notes"...

Posted on: 2008/12/16 6:57
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Darren Dumas

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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