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Re: The Sensitivity Process
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As I said before you most certainly are entitled to your opinion on this, but don't presume that this example was an exception. In all those sessions there was data gotten although not as dramatic as the example I cited. Now I will not again address this, it is a very personal experience that I chose to share with you. I know what was involved, you do not. I had the experience, you didn't. Your desire to analyse it is normal but also impossible from where you are. I again state that skepticism is healthy until you experience the situation, and since you haven't please remain a skeptic. Don't however fall into the trap of presuming it can't be true. Enough said.

Posted on: 2009/2/15 12:56
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Re: The Sensitivity Process
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You ought to be aware that just because you exerience it doesn't make it true. In addition, isn't necessiarily connected with the actual world outside one's own mind.

Delusions can seem real to people, but often people don't usually put much weight into them, nor do they consider them reliable by any means.

One can't trust all their experiences.

Posted on: 2009/2/15 13:17
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Re: The Sensitivity Process
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Quote:

侶武 wrote:
You ought to be aware that just because you exerience it doesn't make it true. In addition, isn't necessiarily connected with the actual world outside one's own mind.


Similarly, just because something is "mainstream" does not make it "true". History is full of Truths later found to be false. Fulton, Copernicus, Einstein all were called silly and wrong.

Quote:
Delusions can seem real to people, but often people don't usually put much weight into them, nor do they consider them reliable by any means.


I don't know about that! People seemed pretty shocked when the .com bubble burst, and then only a few years later when the Mortgage debacle occured. There are many standardly accepted delusions - just watch TV on Sunday morning.

Our world really only exists for us as we choose to see it. In many cases, the only thing that you can trust are your own Experiences.

Marty

Posted on: 2009/2/15 20:44
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Re: The Sensitivity Process
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Some relation to this topic; Hatsumi Sensei on Friday night at Honbu again related the story of how Takamatsu Sensei was able to draw a detailed floor plan of Hatsumi Sensei's home in Chiba even though he had never been there or seen it. Hatsumi Sensei seems to attribute this to some kind of hyper-sensitivity, ESP, remote viewing or similar thing.

Shawn

Posted on: 2009/2/15 23:21
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Re: The Sensitivity Process
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Shawn has brought up an important point. There's a popular TV show where a guy has inherited some sort of uber powerful awareness of the little things in people and situations. He uses this talent to fool the cops into thinking he's a crime solving psychic. It's a dumb show, but I think the underlying truth is important.

I also know that you can develop many things by just paying attention to the subtle, listening to one's inner self, and connecting the dots that exist below the surface. It's what all good intel collectors, profilers, and such do.

In good relationships, often the two are so connected they know what each other does, thinks and feels at every moment.

In combat, experience will give you the same attributes. Situations can be read, people can be read, danger can be felt long before anything happens.

There's nothing mystical, magical, etc about it. It's a base animal trait we all have and use at times in ways we don't even realize. Whether we develop it in specific ways is something else. But, it also is a launching point for all sorts of pseudo science, cultish behavior and other tomfoolery. Please note, in no way am I saying this is the case with Ed and Charles here (two men I have much respect for). I'm just pointing out that this is quite common - even among Bujinkan folks.

My thoughts are to not think too much on it. Just like the sakki test and "the feeling" of Soke's budo, understanding these things exist in the pure experience of it, not the analytical, conclusive desires of intellectual thought. Of course, that's what I've come to understanding after spending way too many years trying to think myself into understanding it - only to be just as confused in the end.

Posted on: 2009/2/16 2:46
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Darren Dumas

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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Re: The Sensitivity Process
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Quote:

kouryuu wrote:
Some relation to this topic; Hatsumi Sensei on Friday night at Honbu again related the story of how Takamatsu Sensei was able to draw a detailed floor plan of Hatsumi Sensei's home in Chiba even though he had never been there or seen it. Hatsumi Sensei seems to attribute this to some kind of hyper-sensitivity, ESP, remote viewing or similar thing.

Shawn


Isnt that exactly what a ninja would want one to think?
For me a more realistic explanation would be that Takamatsu had someone in the house earlier to give him the data. A plumber, salesman, whatever.
Or had some sort of knowledge of the architecture.
Wasnt that the ninjas job description, to do exactly that sort of thing ?

Or...maybe it was ESP. Or magic.


A good friend of mine was married to a well known and lifelong occultist on the East coast.
They would both go on and on about astral travel. And how they could visit each other and others in their dreams.
They swore by it. It wasnt even debatable.

So, I asked if they would visit me in my dreams.
I was genuinely open to it.
Well, suffice to say it never happened. I kept asking, and prodding even years later, but they had no answers as to why it never worked.
It never happened even with years of time to do it and two very "experienced" astral travelers.

.... I never heard about astral travel from either of them again.

Posted on: 2009/2/16 3:32
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Re: The Sensitivity Process
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I think it is important to note that Hatsumi Soke doesn't seem to try to explain "why" in some definitive term, but relates it to similar conceptual labels (like ESP, etc). The assumption made is that even at his far advanced stage of budo evolutionary understanding, he still doesn't limit the experience to any specific definition or explanation. The experience of it for him was what it was - nothing more, nothing less.

Posted on: 2009/2/16 4:13
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Darren Dumas

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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Re: The Sensitivity Process
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Quote:

D_Cecc wrote:


So, I asked if they would visit me in my dreams.
I was genuinely open to it.
Well, suffice to say it never happened.

.... I never heard about astral travel from either of them again.


Disposition towards a particular outcome goes both ways. You say you were genuinely open to it, but such might have not been the case. Reconciling the view we want to have of ourselves or others to have of us with the actuality of ourselves can be tough sometimes.

Thanks to all for sharing their experiences, but those holding an opposing view won't put any credence to them because the circumstances can and will always be questioned. I'm not saying stop sharing, nor am I trying to be facetious. Rather, I would like to bounce an idea off of everyone that this conversation has made occur to me.

First, Darren, I like your stance " not to think about it too much". I don't take this to mean to abandon objectivity. Once one is reasonably satisfied a particular outcome or feat is possible, the "why" can take a second seat to the "how". There are of course different ways to approach such things, but with matters of particularly perplexing "why's", getting the "hows" can help remove some of the mystery.
Throughout history cultures have assigned mystical/mythological reasons or causes to a plethora of phenomenon which the used in practical application. Magic blessed herbs or naturally occurring chemical composition of plant biology, eating them still has the same effect.

Opps, getting derailed.....

Sensitivity, ...super awesome ninja sensitivity.... Persistently trying to prove a point or have someone admit a stance that they in the end will not accept or admit to would be akin to trying to muscle through a technique, implying a lack of super ninja sensitivity, would it not. Once a reasonable amount of effort has been expended and a point of diminishing return is reached, does it not make more sense to either change the tactic being used or abandon the attempt. Another deciding factor on abandoning the attempt would definitely be the reason for attempting it in the first place, to save someones life, help a genuinely inquisitive person form a good opinion on a matter, or convince someone they are wrong.

Ok, enough crazy talk, later amigo's

~juan
z
a
z
uet
a

Posted on: 2009/2/16 4:35
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Re: The Sensitivity Process
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Quote:

Darren wrote:
I think it is important to note that Hatsumi Soke doesn't seem to try to explain "why" in some definitive term, but relates it to similar conceptual labels (like ESP, etc). The assumption made is that even at his far advanced stage of budo evolutionary understanding, he still doesn't limit the experience to any specific definition or explanation. The experience of it for him was what it was - nothing more, nothing less.


ok.
Its just odd to me that
1) The most realistic
2) most logical
3) most historically accurate

explanations seem to sometimes be given a backseat to ESP.
Not saying ESP doesnt exist in some form, just that maybe someone who claims to be a ninja, doing a very ninjaish thing, should be given at least an equal amount of consideration.

Posted on: 2009/2/16 4:56
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Re: The Sensitivity Process
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Marty,

You're not talking about a delusion, you are talking about a belief that turned out to be false not quite the same thing. But, if we are more careful we should be able to avoid such mistakes in the future. Very few people were aware of the economic situation.

Shawn,

I've heard that story from sensei before I also I believe it is in one of his books. The explanation differed before, to illicit information without people knowing is slightly different from remote viewing and other tricks although probably related as they are both tricks.

I can do the same without remote viewing, by listening and organizing the info I have. It is just a trick, people have a tendency not to notice small bits of information slipping out over time.

But, I have this tendency that I exhaust probable explainations before I decide to believe in things that fail to have evidence. Other explanations seem more probable than ESP and the like, Although some forms might exist.

Iphone typing is difficult. Sorry for typos.

Posted on: 2009/2/16 8:06
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