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Re: Other styles!
Permanent Village Fixture
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Some good posts... some questionable opinions.

I'd suggest the following Definitions:
-Combat - anytime when you are actually fighting to protect yourself (your life) without rules.
-Sport - Rules! For example the no holds barred UFC ... RULES!!! http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules (you can't do half of what 'we' would)

A few comments (sorry for the rant):

BJJ is not a combat art and is not better than the BJK art in combat. BJJ is ideal for a ring fight as there are no weapons and no multiple attackers. It is a sport martial art made for sport (and we've seen that it is a very affective sport martial art... though it now seems that MMA has 'evolved from BJJ). A combat martial art should prepare one for a possible combat situation. In a warzone that may mean firearms, in most areas this should include multiple attackers and weaponry.

Yes, it obviously depends on the practitioner and what they put into their training! But one art can certainly be better than another. In this sense it is important to understand the history of the art, the method of instruction, and whether the art (& instructors) have the correct answers.

There are only so many ways to manipulate the human body so there will be similarities between arts. But go ahead and take a technique from another art and apply it with taijutsu I'm sure you could make it effective in a given situation. We also manipulate the mind and train to become aware of potential dangers at their early presentation. Many arts have borrowed from others, but look into the history ie. when you comment about aikido realise that Morihei Ueshiba trained under the kuki clan.

Some aspects of our training:
-External/Physical - Taijutsu & physical fitness
-Internal/awareness/energy (chi/ki) - godan test and striking/sensitivity
-Mind/spiritual/intention - perserverence and attitude/mindset.


Performing perfect Kata vs. learning from the kata and applying these principles to other movements. What was the intention of the kata's creator when he wrote down this set of movements? for ex. sanshin (as it is typically performed) will not be the most effective technique in a fight... but it teaches you to move with your body, using distancing and timing!

Flow & formlessness (Henka) vs. stiff rigid kata & form
-Since the attack may not be like that of a kata (ie the common BJK criticism of the lunge punch) we should use the kata's to teach our body to move on its own. This is why people eventually develope their own personal taijutsu after years of training their body just moves itself.

Training in the BJK movements teaches the subconcious how to move so that one eventually just reacts approapriately to a given situation ie mushin. For ex. I doubt you thought about how to do a breakfall the last time you unexpectedly needed to use it you just did it 'naturally'. Consider how much you bruised when you started training and how little you bruise now even though you've stepped up your training and get hit harder now... your body is protecting you on its own!

In my personal opinion I believe that the BJK has everything that one requires, But I do feel that some of these can be taught better by non BJK practitioners or arts.

Posted on: 2009/3/26 17:28
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Re: Other styles!
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I like very much Chen style Tai Chi. I have this rare luck to meet a lineage teacher. Most of the tai chi that I learned before had a much more shallower feeling to it.
However, this is just like in our art: unless you meet a really good teacher and study with him/her quite a few times a week you are merely scratching the surface.

mn

Posted on: 2009/3/26 18:40
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Re: Other styles!
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Maybe I should clarify one point. I have no interest in leaving Bujinkan. I just want to broaden my understanding of the martial arts that are out there as a whole. I have never seen anything I would rather train in than Bujinkan, but that doesn't mean there aren't other good things out there. I'm just trying to make sure I haven't overlooked anything.

It would be foolish of me to assume that because I train in a great martial art that there is nothing for me to learn from looking at others. It might be a new way to approach a movement I have already been doing, or I might see something that I would never want to do, but might have to be ready for were I to fight one of these people. (Which is about the only reason I look at MMA fights at all for example.)

Of course there is tons and tons of overlap between various martial arts. But within those similarities there will also be differences.

It's really important to check out how other styles do things. Otherwise we might end up being surprised by something they do that is actually quite basic (and maybe stupid) but since it's foreign to us it might end up getting us. I remember hearing about this one time at the Hombu when a certain high level Judoka (who now does Bujinkan) was there. I won't name this person though out of respect. Soke asked if anyone thought they could pin that person. A couple of very high level practitioners tried to throw and pin them but they each got thrown and pinned themselves. The point: Never try to beat someone at their own game. Make them fight YOUR fight.

If I don't get to know how other martial arts work and think, how can I avoid situations like this?

Posted on: 2009/3/27 4:12
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Re: Other styles!
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Quote:

Ryan wrote:
If I don't get to know how other martial arts work and think, how can I avoid situations like this?


By being more aware of the evolving kuukan than of the other's "technique" or "style". . .or of your own, for that matter.

In a "real situation" you're not likely to have any foreknowledge of the background of the other person.

If you do have such knowledge (or think you do) before you're in the thick of things, it may actually make it easier for you to be deceived and harmed or killed because of your assumptions.

Posted on: 2009/3/27 9:18
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Re: Other styles!
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P.S. - Ryan:

My response was not meant to suggest that there is no value in looking at/playing around with other arts; I was just addressing the specific question I quoted. There are some arts out there which use a lot of the same principles we do, but a bit differently; and playing with those can sometimes enhance your understanding of some aspects of our own budo.

Posted on: 2009/3/27 10:44
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Re: Other styles!
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Dale you got good points.
Still if I did not train Bujinkan I would definetely go for Tenshin Shōden Katori Shintō-ryū (天真正伝香取神道流
I love that Ryu Ha.

Posted on: 2009/3/27 21:33
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Re: Other styles!
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Quote:
By being more aware of the evolving kuukan than of the other's "technique" or "style"...


Here we go again with the Kuukan...

Posted on: 2009/3/28 14:33
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Re: Other styles!
Village Old Timer
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Quote:

art_vandelay wrote:
Quote:
By being more aware of the evolving kuukan than of the other's "technique" or "style"...


Here we go again with the Kuukan...




I'm perfectly fine with alternative terms like "the evolving shape of the interactive tactical space". . .

Posted on: 2009/3/29 2:17
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Re: Other styles!
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Hi Ryan,

Just a few thoughts on arts to look at from my point of view;

Judo - 'Freindlier' versions of throws we do. (thinking about the legal aspect side of things)

Think about it:

"your honor I threw him over my hip and onto his back and knocked the wind out of him" versus "your honor I threw him on his head and broke his neck"


Boxing - I have found translates well with taijutsu

Muay Thai - Teaches how to work within that extra close and personal range.


Lastly some form of ground fighting.

Why? Well because if you look at the MCMAP and MACP programs that are being taught to the Marines and Army respectively, they are encompassing those very things to create as complete of a system as they can for their members to deal with any eventuality.

Not that I think that hand to hand fighting will ever take the place of the good old M16 A1(loved it) A2(hated it) A3(up to date version of A1)variants.

But those branches recognized that merde hits the ventilator from time to time and an updated program was needed for the individual who doesn't have inmmediate access to a weapon.

But they now have more tools in their tool box to work with.

Just my opinion.

Usual Disclaimers apply.

~Rob Acox

Posted on: 2009/3/30 0:47
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Re: Other styles!
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I've thoroughly enjoyed my own training in various arts besides budo taijutsu. Everything I've done, including gunfighting, has added to my martial skill and understanding. I've worked quite a bit with Systema. I REALLY like that. Their movement is second-to-none in my opinion. I love their flow. I also appreciate the flow of aikido and its helped me understand different forms of leverage as compared to jujutsu.

I've recently started training in BJJ. I have a new found respect for this "sport". I had previously looked down my nose at it as not street-effective. However, having rolled with some really good BJJ guys, I can see how effective it can be on the ground in a fight. A real fight. Anyone who poo-poos BJJ as not "combat" effective (and I used to) has not rolled with good BJJ guys. Seriously eye-opening.

I've also enjoyed muay thai. Try performing some jujutsu on a muay thai fighter. Ugh! Its gonna hurt. Not saying you can't do it, I have, but if you're used to responding to a straight lunge punch, things look a little different when faced with blows from many different weapons from many different angles. I've found I need to be able to fight his fight until I can enter and bring some jujutsu into play. Really fun (except for the bruised ribs).

I would recommend taking some seminars in anything you're interested in! Find the most reputable teacher in the arts you are interested in, find out where and when he's hosting a seminar, and go there! Or if you travel for work or vacation, see if there are any "world renown" instructors of ANY art in the area and go train with them. I've done this quite a bit. My goal it to be in a seminar or other class at least once a quarter. I've trained gunfighting with Gabe Suarez, various arts with Dan Inosanto and visited a couple of different Bujinkan instructors (but prefer to do something different when I travel). Every experience, bar none, has added to my skill and experience.

Br,
Jeff

Posted on: 2009/3/30 2:18
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