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Re: The Case For Systemic Effectiveness
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Quote:

bujincan wrote:

That's why I ask: what it is that "we do in the Bujinkan" that makes it effective?


Cool post John.
As others have stated I think the art itself can potentially be irrelevant.

What is extremely important IMO is training methodology and focus. How is the art trained? And, why is it trained ?

The training methodology and focus used to train an art should appropriately match the goals you want to achieve.
A hobbyist who is training because of their love of Japanese history and culture, will usually not have the same focus and goals as say a police officer who expects to use the art that very night.
The police officer will most likely require a different methodology, and will naturally have a different mindset and focus.

Its like taking the art of boxing...bare bone techniques.
Now instead of training it as boxers do...train the boxing as taichi practitioners practice taichi.

Your not going to be able to step into a boxing ring and fight a boxer, with the training methodology you used.
It was the wrong methodology for that goal/purpose.

So its a matter of how and why something is trained.

One cant claim to run an effective boxing gym if you train with a taichi methodology . It simply could not survive in the boxing world.

Posted on: 2009/4/15 15:34
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Re: The Case For Systemic Effectiveness
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Quote:

D_Cecc wrote:
Quote:

bujincan wrote:

That's why I ask: what it is that "we do in the Bujinkan" that makes it effective?


Cool post John.
As others have stated I think the art itself can potentially be irrelevant.

What is extremely important IMO is training methodology and focus. How is the art trained? And, why is it trained ?

The training methodology and focus used to train an art should appropriately match the goals you want to achieve.
A hobbyist who is training because of their love of Japanese history and culture, will usually not have the same focus and goals as say a police officer who expects to use the art that very night.
The police officer will most likely require a different methodology, and will naturally have a different mindset and focus.

Its like taking the art of boxing...bare bone techniques.
Now instead of training it as boxers do...train the boxing as taichi practitioners practice taichi.

Your not going to be able to step into a boxing ring and fight a boxer, with the training methodology you used.
It was the wrong methodology for that goal/purpose.

So its a matter of how and why something is trained.

One cant claim to run an effective boxing gym if you train with a taichi methodology . It simply could not survive in the boxing world.



Posted on: 2009/4/15 15:39
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Re: The Case For Systemic Effectiveness
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Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
We do claim that this art adapts to the individual, do we not?


We do? I don't. I guess I am not part of the 'we'.

Posted on: 2009/4/15 18:12
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Re: The Case For Systemic Effectiveness
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Maybe one thing to ponder is why there are huge sections of kata in some of the Ryu-ha within the Bujinkan?

What is everyones opinion?

Regards / Skuggvarg

Posted on: 2009/4/15 19:08
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Re: The Case For Systemic Effectiveness
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During the togakuwa shogunate there wasn't much in terms of War. My guess they filled in the gaps with several techniques. But, as sogo bujutsu goes, there aren't that many techniques. Kukishin ryu has the most, but it also has a lot added to it from takagi yoshin ryu.

30 some techniques of taijutsu alone isn't that many really. Many schools have less and some have more.

Kenjutsu schools usually have fewer techniques than jujutsu schools. But sogo bujutsu schools will have more do to teaching more things like weapons and the like.

Posted on: 2009/4/15 19:30
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Re: The Case For Systemic Effectiveness
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First let me say that I really liked your post Domonic, I would agree with what you said especially about the need to be aware of what your goals are in your training. Next I do think this art adapts to the person, there are no rigid rules about what must be done, only that it work. This is acquired through the training of principles not of techniques. Techniques taught are mainly a way to demonstrate those principles. A person who has a handicap still is able to effectively use what is in this art, with training it can work for anyone. So Ben we will need to disagree on that. Women are just as able as men in developing the necessary skill to protect themselves and size really is not an issue nor is age. If that is not indicative of an art that adapts to anyone please explain to me why it isn't. No most of these persons are not seeking to fight in a ring ---- their goal is to be safe in the lives they lead. That is a valid goal.
John, I think the "what we do in the Bujinkan" is approach each situation as unique and requiring the ability to adapt directly to it, not follow some prescribed technique. There is no "technique 421". There is only the flow that comes from the subconscious level. Those who have been training a long time probably have experienced this. Some other combat arts also do this, they must to be effective.
Art, I have not fought a swordsman and hope I never have too. This is a hope that I also wish for all of you. The odds for facing a swordsman with a sword yourself is really so low its hard to calculate. That is not in our world now, if I had to I'd use my .45 which I do know how to use. Maybe this is just adapting to our own world.

Posted on: 2009/4/15 22:24
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Re: The Case For Systemic Effectiveness
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Art, I have not fought a swordsman and hope I never have too. This is a hope that I also wish for all of you. The odds for facing a swordsman with a sword yourself is really so low its hard to calculate. That is not in our world now, if I had to I'd use my .45 which I do know how to use. Maybe this is just adapting to our own world.


Interesting reply. A few questions come to mind.

First, does the fact that the odds for facing a swordsman justify the teaching of made up techniques without having the actual combat experience? The movement of Kenjutsu and Sôjutsu is so important to our art's taijutsu, it should not be taken so lightly. So it should be studied carefully and taught even more carefully IMO.

Second, the fact that when you imagine yourself face to face with a swordsman your first thought is that of using your .45 makes me think you have little confidence in your sword fighting skills. So then why would you teach something in which you do not feel competent, claiming to have experience in this field?

Third, all of this does not answer John's question on what makes what we do in the Bujinkan so effective. Pulling out a .45 has nothing to do with the study of Kukishin ryu kenjutsu or taijutsu.

Besides....even just for the sake of argument...what if your gun jams? What if you run out of ammo? What if you are not carrying your .45 at that moment? Sounds like a cop-out answer to me.

Oh and what was it that Soke said at the last daikomyosai?

From Ohashi's site...

We asked Soke about the theme for 2009 at Hombu today. He answered "No theme." and added that we should practice Ken (sword) much more

Posted on: 2009/4/16 1:45
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Re: The Case For Systemic Effectiveness
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*Second, the fact that when you imagine yourself face to face with a swordsman your first thought is that of using your .45 makes me think you have little confidence in your sword fighting skills. So then why would you teach something in which you do not feel competent, claiming to have experience in this field?*

And not using your .45 would make me think your not very bright if you had access to it. That or you weren't paying attention to any strategies taught, yes, even in the Bujinkan. I'm not going to duel with a swordsman, whether I'm higher skilled or not. I'll take the more effective route.

*Third, all of this does not answer John's question on what makes what we do in the Bujinkan so effective. Pulling out a .45 has nothing to do with the study of Kukishin ryu kenjutsu or taijutsu.*

I have a video of Soke pulling a firearm using taijutsu. I think it has everything to do with the study. The mere fact it is considered lends the art an effectiveness limited in other arts which wouldn't dare study firearm application.

Posted on: 2009/4/16 2:37
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Re: The Case For Systemic Effectiveness
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Philip you totally missed my point and I'm sure you're not the only one so let me clarify a little:

John asked "What is it about what we do in the Bujinkan that makes it effective?".

While we all agree the use of a .45 has it's merit in certain situations, it is not the answer to that particular question. Nor is that something exclusive to the Bujinkan: Nowadays everyone and their grandmother can handle a handgun.
Furthermore, it does not require a lifetime studying the kihon happo.

So let me say this again: this could be an interesting discussion if we stick to the question.

What is it about the ryuha that made them effective in the past and what is it about the Bujinkan that makes it effective today? And I believe the original question pertains to the study of the actual forms from the ryuha...the way they were passed down for 34 generations. Not everyone's personal interpretation of taijutsu.

John made a nice example when he said that most likely back in the day, if two people learned Gyokko Ryu they would have been taught the exact same movement. This does not seem to be the case today. Why?

Posted on: 2009/4/16 3:05
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Re: The Case For Systemic Effectiveness
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Quote:

Yukkuri mo wrote:
I think they are also good questions, but I think that they do not have the necessary continuity that you imply.

(...)
That is: understand the level of violence you are dealing with and respond in an appropriate way, be AWARE of your surroundings, avoidance and diffusion of violence are far superior to involvement, get off-line of an attack, attack from where your opponent cannot see it, be brutal when necessary, avoid going to ground, escape, minimize your expenditure of energy, and most importantly, "cheat", whenever possible.

Its the combination of all this that I think makes it useful. I look forward to the thought of others more experienced than I.

Chris


IMHO, Chris nailed it pretty well !!

I would like to add to this the idea of "play" and being aware where is the safe space and how the space evolves (rhythm and lack of it) and how it can be managed/shaped/controlled/used-for-hiding etc. etc... .

I also think that the effectiveness is not "systemic" here (like for example army training). It is "individual". The part of the system setup is to confuse an outside observer, so "the setup" will also confuse if not learned properly and confuse those who would try to "steal it". I am wondering: it may be not really "on purpose" but actually an inevitable by-product of all the kyo-jitsu built into the art... so we need to learn to deal with truth and falsehood as they are created on the spot or perpetuated.

That is my opinion, but i am only a beginner and I have been consistently wrong at least several times a week about "what is" .
mn

Posted on: 2009/4/16 4:28
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