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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
Kutaki Postmaster
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Garth, why should Don arm you with actual knowledge of the subject matter? I am sure he has no intention of arming you with anything that might make you seem as if you have a clue, thus legitimizing yourself as a teacher. If you want real knowledge, go to the same source that Don got it from.

You never cease to amuse me. Party on Garth.

Heres my friendly advice:

Its better to have people think your an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

However I fear my advise comes too late.


Markk Bush
www.bujinmag.com

Posted on: 2009/7/18 4:07
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
Permanent Village Fixture
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Quote:

Garth wrote:
But following from my last post

Benkyoka posted

Quote:
Because it has sword work in it.


This is a claim. To which i have asked a source for.



watch "The Origins of Budo" DKMS dvd (2004 if I remember correctly). It is coming from THE Source. How much you get form it depends on how much your eyes can see.

Pretty please, empty your cup.

mn

Posted on: 2009/7/18 4:47
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San Francisco Bujinkan Dojo
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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Quote:

Garth wrote:

Notice how Don has taken what I said as though its a claim. Yet nowhere in this first post have I actually claimed anything. In fact what i did post was in the form of a question.


Garth,

You might remember that in my first response to you I specifically cautioned against trying to make claims disguised as questions. Lets look at what I am talking about.

After a whole lot of rather mistaken stuff you wrote,

"So if Gyokko Ryu was a Buddhist influenced art which was the foundation of Ninjutsu and used by Ninja like Momochi Whoses job was spying), why would the art have any sword work, especilally if it was never used on the battlefield."

If you look at the points between "if: and "why" you see a claim about buddhist influence on the art. Then you spend several posts trying to cover yourself instead of adopting an attitude of trying to learn from your mistakes. This is the problem.

I could easily write a hundred pages on the inter-relation between Japanese martial arts and religions like buddhism. It is very complex. You tried to say that it is obvious that there were strong signs that buddhist thought in the Gyokko ryu by pointing to its use of mudras in it and use it to postulate that an art that deep in the philosophy would have reservations against taking life with a sword. Yet you fail to remember (or never knew) that the Katori Shinto ryu also uses mudras and they have no problem at all using swords to chop other people into tiny little bits.

It is not just your lack of understanding of the subject matter as I mentioned above, it is the lengths you go to in order to cover yourself and make yourself look good instead of accepting that you don't know that causes me to refuse to post something long that you just won't be able to understand.

Lets face it, first you demanded that I show some proof that the Gyokko ryu was used on the battlefield. Until I could, you wanted it to be taken as a fact that it was not a battlefield art and more in line with what you theorized. But then I mentioned a battlefield version of the Kyoketsushoge. At that point, an honest student of the art would pause to consider things and acknowledge that he was wrong about it not being an art geared toward battle like Katori Shinto ryu or other arts. You did not do that. You then posted about how the flexible part allows people to wrap up opponents without harming them, ignoring that nasty little pointy end it has. So you went from trying to say it was never on a battlefield to hinting that someone might have been running around the battle of Iga no Ran trying to fight an army by wrapping enemy soldiers up and not killing them.

Think about that for a second and you might understand why the posts in this thread are turning towards ones that laugh at you. And the more you try to cover yourself instead of just admitting the truth, the harder it will be to finally admit it and start to learn from your mistakes. And no one who really knows the matter will take the time to post enough on the matter so that even you can understand until you show the proper attitude of trying to learn instead of trying to make yourself look better.

We can only help you overcome your ignorance if you have the proper attitude that will allow you to learn. That has to start with you.

Posted on: 2009/7/18 7:40
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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So after two pages since my original post where I have been called an idiot, or someone who fails to know what I am talking about, even though I might add, I have made no claims, but only asked questions or suggestions.

I have produced quotes by Dr Karl Friday and even produced statistics of battlefield injuries. I have spoken about the Gyokko Ryu Densho which no one has claimed I am wrong about i.e. Togakure Ryu being listed on the Gyokko Ryu Densho, I have even pointed out where Don can find the informaton in relation to the sword lengths when he posted in relation to what i wrote...

Quote:
Garth wrote:
Well as it was explained to me, The swords on the battlefields were too heavy and cumbersome to do those type of cuts. These cuts are common with latter edo period sword work (Off the battlefield) but not on the battlefield.


His reply...

Quote:
Accept the fact that you know nothing about the subject matter and stop postulating about things only to try to defend your theories later on as the silliness of them is pointed out to you.


So he fails to say why I am wrong.

OK I pointed out earlier that Don should read some books by an author called Dr Hatsumi. Do try page 96 of Japanese sword fighting where he talks about the importance of spear over sword and how easier the spear was to use over the sword and how many famous swordsmen during war actually were spearmen first. And on page 94 he talks about the spears effectiveness to penetrate the weak points in the armour (No Don not slashes with swords against armour) The blade even if a sword was used was to be aimed towards weakness between the armour plates.

Here Don let me quote it for you page 92

"In a situation in which one has to fight a soldier who is protected by armour, inflicting damage with a single stroke of the sword is a very difficult technique that requires exceptional ability.....thrusting and cutting in to a weakness in the armour..."

As I said Don read it. He's quite good you know.

He also speaks in that same book about how the length in shaku and sun changed over time in regard to the warring states period and the Tokugawa period, and how long the swords really were in the Warring states period. And according to Dr Hatsumi 1573 - 92 roughly 2 shaku 2 sun. yet 1331-33 4 shaku 4 sun (twice as long Don), and he continues about the length of the swords in different periods.

Are you seriously trying to say that a sword like the one on page 176 can be handled as easily as a Tokugawa period katana?


But anyway back to my main point.

Even though i have made quotes, references, statistics all the posters have done on here is try to make out that I know nothing about what i am suggesting. But the interesting point is that the posters on here have failed to actually bring up any counter evidence to what I have suggested.

All they say is "Why should we tell you" or why should I waste my time (even though they continue to reply to my posts)

And to reply to Mr Mrdunsky (I apologise if thats wrong) Yes my group is now in the process of joining the Bujinkan and as far as i am aware I have never been banned from Kutaki.

And yes we are joining via Norman Smithers and we will be training with him on a monthly basis.

But you know although I have respect for many people in the Bujinkan when I get involved in debates like this I can understand why the Bujinkan has a very bad rap.

I'm done here.

Garth

Posted on: 2009/7/18 17:41
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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Quote:

Garth wrote:
So he fails to say why I am wrong.


But I did give you a reason why I was not willing to take a great amount of time to teach you something so that you could understand it when you do the type of things like the Kyoketsushoge battlefield turn around you did.

I do not even know if you are un-aware of the other part of the story you try using Karl Friday and Hatsumi as experts to hide behind, or if you are ignoring them to cover yourself- just like I do not know the same about your comments about mudra and the Katori Shinto ryu.

Garth, your whole outlook on the matter is wrong from the start. As I said, I could write an extremely long post about the matter, but until you show a willingness to admit you are wrong and actually learn, it will just be wasted effort. You are making claims, while trying to play word games to cover yourself. When you stop caring about how you look and actually try to start learning you might be open up for the real facts. My suggestion to you still stands even though it is obvious that you are still the same person you always were.

Posted on: 2009/7/18 21:45
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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Garth,

The Bujinkan has a bad rap because it is bloated with posturing, self-aggrandizing, deluded mush-for-brains who spend too much time maintaining their own self-serving perimeters and hiding behind easily accessible information without taking the time to dig for the truth behind that information. As someone with a degree in archeology i would presume you to see the value in digging for the truth.

So, sorry....the brothel is full.

And engagng in debates on Kutaki will only leave you with diminishing returns, as the people you entangle yourself with here don't "know" much more than you do.


Mark spada

Posted on: 2009/7/18 22:18
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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Quote:

Garth wrote:

But you know although I have respect for many people in the Bujinkan when I get involved in debates like this I can understand why the Bujinkan has a very bad rap.

Garth


What is that bad rap (or rep.)? I really do not know.

Posted on: 2009/7/18 23:39
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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Quote:

Garth wrote:
Benkyoka posted

"Because it has sword work in it."

Source please

Garth


Well, if you can believe it, the best source for what is in Gyokko Ryu is this old guy in Noda Japan who just happens to be the Soke of Gyokko Ryu.

-Oh, you've heard of him?

That's a start.

-Hmm? You haven't seen him teach that subject you are curious about?

That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, you know.

-Oh, you don't have a relationship with him?

That makes things difficult?

-Eh? You don't have access to him?

That's unfortunate.

-Ah, he doesn't know who the hell you are and has no reason to teach you anything?

Sucks to be you then.

Posted on: 2009/7/19 0:19
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
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Quote:

Toruko-jin wrote:
Quote:

Garth wrote:

But you know although I have respect for many people in the Bujinkan when I get involved in debates like this I can understand why the Bujinkan has a very bad rap.

Garth


What is that bad rap (or rep.)? I really do not know.


Hi.

Let me explain a bit.

What Garth tried to do was a common internet tactic pointed out by a guy named Sharp Phil. Love him or hate him, the following description of the tactic stands on its own merits.

Quote:
THINK OF THE CHILDREN

Many VSs and VTGs may become – suddenly and ardently – very concerned with what relatively new students in the Arts may think in reading criticism directed at the suspected frauds in question. Why, all this negativity turns off the newbies, they'll say. What's worse, they'll tell you, is that any attempt to identify and expose martial arts fraudulence may prompt those with less experience to dismiss legitimate teachers and fellow seekers of budo, when in fact those legitimate individuals could have much to offer. This, the VS and VTG will argue, is unthinkable. (Quite often, this same defense mechanism will be made as an argument by earnest discussion participants who believe very strongly in maintaining a positive attitude. There's nothing wrong with wanting things to stay positive, but in avoiding negative ideas when such negativity is warranted, these well-meaning individuals run the risk of allowing the frauds to do more harm. It is better to err on the side of caution.)


So the short version of what Garth wrote was, "Those that disagree with me make the Bujinkan look bad and should stop trying to point out the problems with what I say and do."

Now here is the thing, go to someone who has trained in kenjutsu in Japan and show him what Garth has wrote about how the Katori Shinto ryu IS NOT geared toward combat on a battlefield and ask them which of us they think makes the Bujinkan look bad and who seems more arrogant in their statements. I rather think that those whom have lived in Japan, speak the language and have spent more time under a teacher than Garth ever can hope to will not think kindly of him trying to tell them he knows more than them about how sword work was done in Japan.

Posted on: 2009/7/19 0:41
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Re: Kenjutsu in the Bujinkan
Kutaki Postmaster
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Some rate of injuries at old times.

arrow 40%
rock 10%
sword 7%

If we use this rate to 33000 soldiers that were killed at battle of Sekigahara in 1600 ...

arrow 13200
rock 3300
sword 2310

We have to think about this number not only from weapon's efficiency but number of soldiers who can hold it to battle. It is clear that arrow's production is easier and the price is cheaper than a sword. It was told that discount price of sword was about $3000 and average pocket money of samurai was about $800/year in Edo era.

Yagyu Munenori cut 7 soldiers and his older brother Yagyu Muneaki cut at least 18 soldiers by one kata in the battle.

Any way, from my experience in Bujinkan, it is obvious that Gyokko-ryu has kenjutsu. This is clear from Hatsumi sensei's kuden, practice and densho.

M.Harada

Posted on: 2009/7/19 2:41
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