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Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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Hi everybody,

I am new here and probably posted this question in the wrong section but I couldn't find where else this type of question might better fit in therefore I ask for forgiveness...!

Anyway, I am a bujinkan member and have recently moved away to a new location. Luckily I was able to find a Bujinkan dojo near by and went there for training. However nice everybody there was I was still a bit awestruck when they told me that my ranking was not accepted and I would have to start form mu-kyu again, and that that would be quite customary in many dojos as well?!

Now I would like to know: is it really up to the individual instructor to determine whether a transfer student can continue training from his kyu onwards or not?

thank your dearly for answering my question!

Posted on: 2009/6/19 0:13
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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If you have your certificate from Japan, your new instructor has to accept it.

Some instructors give out unofficial "dojo rank" though, which means you don't have a certificate. If that's the case your new instructor doesn't have to honor it, but often a phone call from your previous instructor (to verify your claim) will do the trick unless your new instructor is overly commercial, power hungry or political. If you only have dojo rank, your best bet is to get your previous instructor to send in for your most recent rank certificate and have it mailed to you, in which case it's official and can't be refused.

That being said, each instructor has his/her own requirements for each level and in some cases they will make you run through their curriculum from the beginning up to your current level before letting you advance in rank, but that doesn't mean you're being stripped of the rank you already have. You can be, for example, a 5th kyu who is working through their 8th kyu curriculum. If your new instructor has "time in rank" requirements, common decency would be to waive that in favor of demonstrated ability until you are working on the material for the level above your current rank.

Posted on: 2009/6/19 1:04
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
Deleted_
thank you very much!

I do have all my kyus as japanese certificates with both my instructor's and sensai's autograph on it. However in this new dojo I was told I would be taught stuff that I most likely wouldn't have been shown elsewhere and that that's why they would have me start as mu again.
Does this sound OK to you or should I be on guard with this new dojo?
Anybody else ever experienced something similar?

best regards,

Dave

Posted on: 2009/6/19 1:34
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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I've seen similar things happen and it's always been with instructors who teach commercially or who hold themselves above their students as "masters".

If you have all of your kyu-level certificates, your new instructor has no right to demote you. He can, however, force you to go through his entire curriculum up to your current level before allowing you to advance.

Things may be done a slightly different way, but the whole "you'll see things here you haven't seen anywhere else" is usually bogus unless the new instructor is mixing in stuff from other arts.

If there is "time in rank" requirements (for example, after getting 9th kyu you need X classes or Y months of training before you're eligible for 8th kyu) and he or she is not willing to waive that in favor of demonstrated competency for the levels below the one you official hold, I'd be suspicious.

There's no reason other than money or ego to treat people like that.

Posted on: 2009/6/19 1:54
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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Yugen,

Before I respond to your question:

Please put your FULL name in your profile!
It is mandatory for all Kutaki members to have their full name in their profiles. Not having your full name in your profile will result in having your account deleted without prior notification. You accepted it when you registered your account.
See the PM that I sent to you.


Quote:

Yugen wrote:

I do have all my kyus as japanese certificates with both my instructor's and sensai's autograph on it.


Again: if they came from the Bujinkan Hombu Dojo in Japan, from Hatsumi Sensei, then these are official certificates and should be respected and accepted by all Bujinkan instructors.

Quote:

However in this new dojo I was told I would be taught stuff that I most likely wouldn't have been shown elsewhere and that that's why they would have me start as mu again.
Does this sound OK to you


It would make me go thinking, definitely.

Eva

Posted on: 2009/6/19 2:01
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Eva Barbara Bodogan
Bujinkan Kagami Dojo
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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This topic brings up several things. Certs from the Hombu can come back with everything on them which takes time for the names, dates, ranks to be filled in at the Hombu; or, you can order the certs without info to be filled in at the training dojo; which I heard is what the Hombu wants. Admin. stated that kyu ranks are not entered in the registry now anyway. And it saves time so the admin. can train and not be bogged down with paper work.
That is one.
Two; Testing and ranking in various dojos in the Bujinkan vary a lot. On one end you have Sandan and Nidan whom have never done the sanshin. Some train for mma type styles and boxing. Some say you should never ever remember the names of the waza from the various ryuha. Some have a list of things you have to know to advance to the next kyu rank; some just say you tried, so you pass. I saw one dojo that wanted you to answer biblical questions before passing you. All say they are Bujinkan.
So yes you may run into a new dojo and because the instructor knows what they teach or don't teach at your old dojo they may want you to start over; or they could just be elitist. Buyer beware.
Barry

Posted on: 2009/6/19 4:15
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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Quote:

Barry wrote:
On one end you have Sandan and Nidan whom have never done the sanshin.


With this I disagree. We have a Ten Chi Jin Ryaku No Maki, which lists everything you should - at least - know before gaining Shodan. Sanshin No Kata is part of it.

As for Kyu grades, before repeating what everybody already wrote, I ask, what is the consequence of not getting accepted as x-grade? Does it mean you are not allowed to train certain things, or that you have to stand somewhere else at greeting? Does it mean you are not allowed to wear the belt?

Clever teachers will train you regarding your skills and those might differ from your 'grade' upwards or downwards ...

Posted on: 2009/6/19 4:50
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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I think anyone reasonable would disagree with that Stephan. Safe to say most instructors would require at least a basic understanding of the Sanshin No Kata for 9th kyu, much less Shodan. All that said, its not to imply, as Barry pointed out, that it dosen't happen. The core issue is the honoring of rank from another school, at the end of the day if you are a teacher in the Bujinkan then Hombu is the last word, we all know that. I do not see how anyone could propose not to honor a rank from Hombu whether the individual (in the mind of the assessor) deserves it or not. If you don't like what they are doing or have done simply hold them back till you do; and develop a relationship in the process that will allow for any inconsistencies to be addressed without tearing someone down.


Mike
Bujinkan Madison Dojo
Madison WI

Posted on: 2009/6/19 6:39
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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Mike; Very good points! There should always be a reasonable way to work together. And what does it matter, as we are all doing training for life. Just keep going!
Barry

Posted on: 2009/6/19 11:07
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Re: Ranking accepted in other dojo?
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There are other issues too. If you haven't trained for years and are obviously no longer in possession of even rudimentary taijutsu skills then you might expect to start again or lower down as a kyu grade, the difficulty comes at shodan and above, before far more ego is attached to yudansha rank.

But if you accept a really bad black belt into your dojo with open arms, you have to accept that from that point on, they represent you and your dojo, and you can see the teacher's point of view in not wanting that.

We have occasional black belt visitors where I train who are are 7th kyu ability at best, I don't know if they were graded at my local dojo many years ago or somewhere else many years ago, but it was definitely many years ago if you know what I mean! And even though it is my local dojo, and I'm not that great myself, I wouldn't want someone from another dojo or other art coming along and judging me, the dojo or our art based on what they see an undeserving black belt doing.

Regardless of our own homegrown cliché, the bad students and bad teachers don't all hang out together, they are everywhere.

It's probably just me, but I perceived the original poster's experience completely differently to most of you. Most of you immediately believed the teacher was a fault, a money making charlatan, but my own first impression, naive as I am, was that the teacher in question may simply have been asserting some quality control.

You could even lose your own students if you tolerate the presence and accept the rank of an individual graded higher than them, unless you either promote your own students arbitrarily to make up the difference, or demote the unworthy newcomer, and I know which option I feel would be preferable, to preserve quality control.

p.s. to 'know' ALL the Ten Chi Jin or be 'fantastic' at one-third of the Ten Chi Jin and not know the rest of it, which makes a better budoka?

>nidan and not know Sanshin, unbelievable but sadly possible.

Posted on: 2009/6/19 21:40
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