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Kotō Ryū Kata Kanji and Translation Request Take 2 (this time without the flames and BS)
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Note: The previous post sadly turned into a flame war. In the interest of keeping this on topic I am reposting. My apologies for any trouble with may have caused anyone.

Hello Everyone,

I am working on my Kotō Ryū notes and could use some help. Could someone please post or e-mail me (instructor@roundrockbujinkan.com) The kanji and translations for the Kotō Ryū kata. I would appreciate this in an electronic format so I can copy and paste the kanji into my notes. I have Sensei's book but unfortunately it does not have the translation for the kata names nor is it a format that allows for electronic copy and paste. Also, I am quite certain that my instructor and the local people resources I have in Texas would not be able to easily provide this information otherwise I would be asking them. Below is the list I have to work with. If you have a more accurate list, please let me know. If you are willing to willing to help, your kindness would be greatly appreciated and I will be willing to share with you the notes once they are compiled. Thanks in advance for you help.

Take care,
John


The Five Levels of Kotō Ryū
Kurai Dori (5 Kamae)
Shoden no Kata (18 Kata)
Chuden no Kata (12 Kata)
Okuden no Kata (12 Kata)
Hekito no Kata (8 Kata)

Kurai Dori (Standing Capture)
Migi Seigan no Kamae
Hidari Seigan no Kamae
Hira Ichimonji no Kamae
Hoko no Kamae
Bobi no Kamae

Shoden no Kata
Yokuto
O Gyaku
Koyoku
Shito
Hosoku
Hoteki
Shato
Keto
Saku Geki
Tan Geki
Batsu Gi
Setto
Shihaku
Kyogi
Kakko
Ura Nami
Ten Chi
Kata Maki

Chuden no Kata
Hida
Hisaku
Hicho
Hito
Kappi
Nonpi
Suito
Go Hi
He Hi
Teki Gaeshi
Koto
Kakuhi

Okuden no Kata
Santo
Santo
Koto
Shinsen
Kompi
Sho Setsu
So Setsu
Soto
Ko no Ki
Kimon
Ran Setsu
Ura Kimon

Hekito no Kata
Soku Boku
Boku Hen
Damara
Shuto / Shuruki
Kibo
Batsu Yo
Kuahi / Kahi
Sako Ryoku / Seki Ryoku

Posted on: 2010/2/14 10:25
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Re: Kotō Ryū Kata Kanji and Translation Request Take 2 (this time without the flames and BS)
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Have you asked the instructors in Texas? How do you know they don't have it? There are several judans and above in Texas? Is there a reason why you won't ask them?

Posted on: 2010/2/14 12:25
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Re: Kotō Ryū Kata Kanji and Translation Request Take 2 (this time without the flames and BS)
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Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
Have you asked the instructors in Texas? How do you know they don't have it? There are several judans and above in Texas? Is there a reason why you won't ask them?


Ok, its a fair question. Here you go:

I have known the shihan in my area for years (some over a decade). Overtime I have been able to discern what knowledge they are able to provide (and in a reasonable time frame) and what they are not. Believe me, If I thought that they were going to be able to readily provide the information, I would be taking the question to them and not here.

In this case, it boils down to two things, knowledge of the language and the amount of time to get a response back. Most of the shihan I know have about the same or lower level of Japanese language skill that I have. I can get around the trains, store and restaurants just fine but I don't know enough kanji to read a Japanese newspaper. Now the one or two that might have that level of Japanese are extremely busy (The one I'm thinking of just finished medical school and is working on his residency if I am not mistaken. He barely has enough time to see himself in the mirror in the morning.). I am sure that anyone of these shihan given the time and/or Japanese language skill would be willing to provide that information. The reality is that it is not that easy. Going onto this forum where there are people who are a) experienced in the art and b) have the Japanese language skill and possibly the Kanji in an electronic format is much more efficient way to get the information I am requesting.

I hope that answers your question.

Posted on: 2010/2/14 13:39
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Re: Kotō Ryū Kata Kanji and Translation Request Take 2 (this time without the flames and BS)
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I don’t think you’re going to get what you’re asking for John. To start with, not many people have it and there’s no real reason why they should. People who have it may not want to share it - they may not feel it is theirs to share.

I’m not saying this is the case with you John – I don’t know you and have no reason to think this applies to you at all – but in general I think it’s unfortunate when teachers fall into the trap of thinking that because they have a shidoshi license, they should be able to teach everything in the nine schools. That’s a lot of pressure to put on yourself, and it can only lead to problems.

Some of the best teaching advice I have ever got was to just teach what you know and be ruthless with yourself in assessing what you really, really know.

I have students who teach now, and what I say to them is that there’s no need to feel under pressure to be able to teach Koto Ryu Koppojutsu – just be able to pass on the lessons you have learned from your teacher, perhaps adding insight you have gained through your own studies and through your own training trips with Soke in Japan, or at seminars with other people who studied in a lot of depth.

If you’ve learned kata in Japan, then I think it’s probably okay to present what you’ve learned, but I think there are very few people who can say they are teaching Koto Ryu, or Gyokko Ryu etc.

That information is out there and is freely accessible if you are particularly interested and want to search out that kind of instruction. It’s not that hard to find a shihan in Japan interested in such things and ask them about, for example, Koto Ryu but you have to put the time and effort into creating a relationship whereby they trust you a small bit.

Actually, maybe trust is too loaded a term – I think maybe they just need to recognise you and know that you’re sincere and interested, rather than just messing about. I know in my case, I don't post information such as that you've asked for online because I just don't have the authority to do so. Just because a teacher gives it to me doesn't mean they're happy for me to hit the publish button 20 minutes later on the web.

The internet is probably not a great place to find specifics like that.

Posted on: 2010/2/14 20:28
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Re: Kotō Ryū Kata Kanji and Translation Request Take 2 (this time without the flames and BS)
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Quote:
If you are willing to willing to help, your kindness would be greatly appreciated and I will be willing to share with you the notes once they are compiled.


Dear Oniyama,
I dont think you should share your notes with people you do not know and trust. There is a risc someone will use them and spread false information. For the same reason I dont think you should ask for such complicated things over internet. What if I, for example, sent you detailed information about Koto Ryu with all the knaji translated and all the kata explained but deliberately falsefied the information? How would you know what to believe and what to discard. Better ask a reliable source you know or get to know one you can trust

Regards / Skuggvarg

Posted on: 2010/2/14 21:56
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Re: Kotō Ryū Kata Kanji and Translation Request Take 2 (this time without the flames and BS)
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Alex has given some really good advice to you John. While we can talk about a lot of things on forums such as this, we must ALWAYS keep in mind that it then becomes a permanent public record, something that anyone can access. That is a concern. Teach what you know, never claim expertise where you don't have it, let your own actions/teaching be whatt determines your expertise. While the Bujinkan is made up of nine schools, only six have been taught. Dr. Hatsumi has made it the Bujinkan which uses ALL the schools for the principles they teach and used all those principles within the Bujinkan framework. History and Tradition are to be respected, valued, and learned from, but we still must apply those lessons to our current situation, to our lives today. It must work now or it has little value to our lives. I tend to be very pragmatic about our art, I want it to work for me. I also want it to work for those I teach.

Posted on: 2010/2/15 0:45
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Re: Kotō Ryū Kata Kanji and Translation Request Take 2 (this time without the flames and BS)
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Quote:

Cuchulain wrote:


I’m not saying this is the case with you John – I don’t know you and have no reason to think this applies to you at all – but in general I think it’s unfortunate when teachers fall into the trap of thinking that because they have a shidoshi license, they should be able to teach everything in the nine schools. That’s a lot of pressure to put on yourself, and it can only lead to problems.

Some of the best teaching advice I have ever got was to just teach what you know and be ruthless with yourself in assessing what you really, really know.



If you’ve learned kata in Japan, then I think it’s probably okay to present what you’ve learned, but I think there are very few people who can say they are teaching Koto Ryu, or Gyokko Ryu etc.


.


Hi Alex,

You raise a valid concern. I agree with you that someone should not teach what they do not know.
Fortunately, in my case, what I teach either comes from my first hand experience in Japan or from a qualified instructor who learned the Kata from one or more of the Japanese shihan. From time to time I'll bring in one of the the shihan in to teach a school that my students and I have not yet seen. When those seminars are held I make sure to video tape it and take good, thorough notes. Sometimes the instructor has the translation for the kata. Sometimes they don't. Generously, they do provide what information they can.

As a Shidoshi, I don't feel any pressure to teach what I don't know. I do, however, think that it is proper that I should seek out and learn what I don't know and be as accurate as possible in teaching what I do know.

My search for the kanji and translations stems from a desire to have the most complete set of notes possible for myself and to pass on to my students.

You are right that I might not get what I am looking for, though I will say that when I made a similar request relating to Gyokko Ryu, I did receive some assistance. So, I figured it was worth a try with what I am doing now with Koto Ryu.

Thanks for your input.

Posted on: 2010/2/15 1:13
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Re: Kotō Ryū Kata Kanji and Translation Request Take 2 (this time without the flames and BS)
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Quote:

skuggvarg wrote:
Quote:
If you are willing to willing to help, your kindness would be greatly appreciated and I will be willing to share with you the notes once they are compiled.


Dear Oniyama,
I dont think you should share your notes with people you do not know and trust. There is a risc someone will use them and spread false information. For the same reason I dont think you should ask for such complicated things over internet. What if I, for example, sent you detailed information about Koto Ryu with all the knaji translated and all the kata explained but deliberately falsefied the information? How would you know what to believe and what to discard. Better ask a reliable source you know or get to know one you can trust

Regards / Skuggvarg


Hello Skuggvarg,

As far as sharing notes goes, first, my offer to send what I had over to Duncan would have been sent privately, and not on the forum. Duncan was providing me with some useful suggestions. I did look over his web site and saw that he is a shihan in our system. Could he have falsified the information about himself on his web site? Sure, but I think that he would have been called out about it a long time ago. I did not get the sense that Duncan could not be trusted with such information.

As far as a risk of someone using my notes to spread intentionally false information, to what end would they do so. Do you really think that there is someone out there who is so bent on bringing harm to the Bujinkan that they would take my notes, rewrite them and publish them out on the web in the hope that some poor, unsuspecting person would find these fake notes and learn the kata wrong.? I'm sorry but I am just not that much of a conspiracy theorist. Now there may be a risk of inaccurate information being put out. I'll grant you that. Even so, anyone who has been around long enough (especially in the Bujinkan) knows that any information you get off the internet needs to be cross checked.

Now, as I have stated before on this thread, I am not publishing my notes out on the internet. I only provided them to my students and friends that train in the Bujinkan. I do feel that if someone where to help me with the Kanji and the translations that it would only be fair play that I would provide them with the notes as they helped me put them together. I do not think that this is unreasonable. Think about it for a minute. Let's say that you were to provide me with the kanji and translations. It would be pretty rude of me to say "thanks for the information but, too bad, you can't see what I did with it". The kind of person who would have that sort of specific information to share is likely a Bujinkan practitioner who already has their own kata notes.

You brought up the issue of risk. Risk implies that something bad could happen, in this case as a result of my notes falling into the wrong hands. I don't think that the Bujinkan is going to suddenly fall apart because my notes got leaked. If that were that case we'd be in pretty bad shape with all the videos and books Hatsumi-sensei as well as others have put out. So, Skuggvarg, what is the worst case scenario. Fill in the blank: "John Hidalgo shares his notes with another Bujinkan practitioner he met on Kutaki.org and then ___________ happens." Specifically, what are you afraid they might do with my notes?

Now I will say that I don't share my notes with non-Bujinkan practitioners, not because I am afraid that "The Society To Bring Harm To The Bujinkan" might get ahold of it and spread false information out into the world, but because I feel that someone needs to make a certain personal investment of time and effort in the Bujinkan before receiving that information. In other words, to get something from the art you should first give somethign to the art. Besides, for someone who had not trained in out system, my notes would read more like stereo instructions. For someone in the Bujinkan they would be a good suplment but could never take the place of working with a qualified instructor.

I hope that helps.

Posted on: 2010/2/15 2:01
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Re: Kotō Ryū Kata Kanji and Translation Request Take 2 (this time without the flames and BS)
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John,

You have already stated that you have Soke's book. All the information you have asked for it already available to you. Surely, you can take that information and convert it to electronic form?

Posted on: 2010/2/15 11:48
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Re: Kotō Ryū Kata Kanji and Translation Request Take 2 (this time without the flames and BS)
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Quote:

benkyoka wrote:
John,

You have already stated that you have Soke's book. All the information you have asked for it already available to you. Surely, you can take that information and convert it to electronic form?


Ok. I am asking this question out of genuine curiosity. By what method would you suggest taking the text in Soke's book and transferring into into an electronic format that can then be inserted into text (where font size, color, bold, italic, etc. can be manipulated just like regular text in a word document) If you have a mechanism for doing this that you could recommend, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,
John

Posted on: 2010/2/15 12:27
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