Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Socialize
 

Recent Topics

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



« 1 (2) 3 4 5 ... 9 »


Re: Kenjutsu vs. Ono-ha Itto Ryu
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2010/1/13 13:26
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 173
Offline
Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
Most of the weapon work comes from the Kukishin. Especially the more obscure weapons that were unique to the Kukishin. Including the kyogetsu shoge and "Togakure Sanpo Hiden." (All Kukishin pirate weapons used to board ships and attack the people on them. They were deleted from the original Kukishin scrolls when Takamatsu rewrote and gave a copy to the Kuki family after the fires.)

That material was what he was going to use to create the Kukishin Ninjutsu school he asked permisson to create. That information can be found in other Kukishin schools that was passed on through Takamatsu before he split with the family and Togakure was introduced to the world. That is why other schools know some of the Togakure material. ie. teppan = senban shuriken Togakure Kunai (Juppo Seshou) is the Kukishin tessen. The Togakure sword comes from the Kukishin hanbojutsu.


Your mind is all twisted up in conspiracy theories that hold no weight. You provide no reference, evidence or research to any of your wild claims and accusations. Should we all just take your word for it??

The simple facts are that Takamatsu-sensei was passed the Togakure-Ryu through Toda-sensei. This was passed on to Hatsumi-sensei.

When Kuki Takaharu reformed the Kukishin Shinto and martial arts Takamatsu-sensei was central in reorganizing this with Iwami-sensei. Takamatsu-sensei and his students such as Akimoto-sensei restructured to school in many ways. Takamatsu-sensei was soke of the martial lineage but was unable to continue because of problems with another teacher there and the direction he took. The direction of that school became different to what the soke (Takamatsu-sensei) had wanted. There were many letters between the Kuki soke and Takamatsu-sensei and he understood very well sensei’s situation.

The soke-ship of the martial lineage was passed onto Hatsumi-sensei.

I hope this helps you.

Posted on: 2010/4/22 23:21
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kenjutsu vs. Ono-ha Itto Ryu
Permanent Village Fixture
Joined:
2003/2/12 6:15
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 311
Offline
Duncan

I see you are still trying get Cool points with the powers that be. Trying to get that next promotion, right?

What's your point? Everything I said is true. I have as much evidence as those that claim what I say is false. Or that everything in the Togakure Ryu wasnt just taken from Kukishin and his other studies in Korean Chinese arts. What is exactly wrong with what I said again?

Once again what is your point? Where is your proof that what I say is false. Your little story doesn't refute my statements. I enjoyed the information you shared. Where's your proof? Without it your story sounds like some twisted theory. Just as much professional researchers have no real evidence that history behind the Togakure Ryu is true.

Get your facts straight.

Let's get back to the Sword work.

Posted on: 2010/4/23 1:27
_________________
You can't block my ip address forever. You can also try to mess with my account because you don't like what I say. I'm not going anywhere. You know who you are! HA!
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kenjutsu vs. Ono-ha Itto Ryu
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2010/1/13 13:26
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 173
Offline
Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
I see you are still trying get Cool points with the powers that be. Trying to get that next promotion, right?


There are no more promotions so there is nowhere to go. You are starting off with the conspiracy theorists usual attempt of blocking off debate by suggesting that anyone who sticks by the accepted line and not your wild theory must be doing so on some ulterior motive.

Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
What's your point?


To correct your statements.


Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
Everything I said is true. I have as much evidence as those that claim what I say is false.


What you are saying is that you have as much evidence to prove what you are saying is true as those who would have to prove a negative?

Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
What is exactly wrong with what I said again?


It is just an “argument from ignorance” in that it regards the lack of evidence for one view constitutes proof that another view is true. Your own theory relies on “negative evidence” and the assertion that because you personally find a premise unlikely or unbelievable a preferred but unproven premise is true instead.



Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
Once again what is your point?


To correct your statements.

Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
Where is your proof that what I say is false.


The only evidence to back your assertions is that I you believe I cannot disprove them? Again you are demanding prove of a negative.

Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
Your little story doesn't refute my statements. I enjoyed the information you shared. Where's your proof? Without it your story sounds like some twisted theory.


My first statement was that the Togakure-Ryu was taught to Takamatsu-sensei by Toda-sensei and then passed onto Hatsumi-sensei. There are numerous references to this by Hatsumi-sensei and Takamatsu-sensei himself. Do you really need me to go through and quote them all?

My second statement was on Takamatsu-sensei’s involvement in reforming the Kukishin Budo on behalf of Kuki Takaharu. This is documented on the Kukishinden website.

The third was on Takamatsu-sensei’s problems and problems and split with the organisation he partnered in setting up and Hatsumi-sensei becoming the martial soke of Kukishin Ryu. I have talked to soke at his house about it, was shown the menkyo and had the circumstance explained (mostly from my wife asking questions). I only gave a taste of this conversation and others but you can talk to soke directly.

Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
Just as much professional researchers have no real evidence that history behind the Togakure Ryu is true.


Please name the “professional researchers” that have investigated this history? I didn’t think there were any so again it boils down to an “argument from ignorance” in that the lack of evidence for one view constitutes proof that another view is true.

Quote:

jwills79 wrote:
Get your facts straight.


All I’ve done is lay out the mundane facts of the early history of the pre-Bujinkan based on the cosistant statements and writings of Takamatsu-sensei and Hatsumi-sensei. I have heard Hatsumi-sensei talk to me about the early history and the Togakure Ryu being from Toda-sensei in such a way as to leave me no doubt that he believes Takamatsu-sensei’s version of events to be correct.

Now if you want to state that you believe there is a “lack of independent evidence” on these claims, you may. I agree.

If you want to add a whole bunch of alternate theories, assertions and claims then you will need evidence to back up each and every point.

Posted on: 2010/4/23 9:46
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kenjutsu vs. Ono-ha Itto Ryu
Permanent Village Fixture
Joined:
2003/2/12 6:15
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 311
Offline
Zenigata
Quote:

There are no more promotions so there is nowhere to go. You are starting off with the conspiracy theorists usual attempt of blocking off debate by suggesting that anyone who sticks by the accepted line and not your wild theory must be doing so on some ulterior motive.


Like, immediately calling my statements conspiracy theory when you have given any information that contradicts them. I have heard that story you told before. That still doesn't affect or refute my statements. Nor does it give you anymore credibility or make everything else you say true.

Quote:

What you are saying is that you have as much evidence to prove what you are saying is true as those who would have to prove a negative?


First the proof is placed on those who claim to
have a Ninja lineage and everything about it is
authentic. That means Hatsumi and Takamatsu. Just like the Koga school people on here are so quick to jump on.


Second, I didn't know you were a 15th Dan. Congratulations!

Third, there is always a motive.

Quote:
My first statement was that the Togakure-Ryu was taught to Takamatsu-sensei by Toda-sensei and then passed onto Hatsumi-sensei. There are numerous references to this by Hatsumi-sensei and Takamatsu-sensei himself. Do you really need me to go through and quote them all?


You are making a statement that has yet to be proven. Yes, except those are two fellows are the ones who need to show proof. That Togakure was past in its entirety as we have it today through Toda. I forgot the storiesabout Toda has yet to be proven. Remember we are not talking about Takagi, Shinden or Kukishin.

Or maybae we are because Kukishin is what it is. ;)

Posted on: 2010/4/23 11:05
_________________
You can't block my ip address forever. You can also try to mess with my account because you don't like what I say. I'm not going anywhere. You know who you are! HA!
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kenjutsu vs. Ono-ha Itto Ryu
Permanent Village Fixture
Joined:
2003/2/12 6:15
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 311
Offline
Quote:

My first statement was that the Togakure-Ryu was taught to Takamatsu-sensei by Toda-sensei and then passed onto Hatsumi-sensei. There are numerous references to this by Hatsumi-sensei and Takamatsu-sensei himself. Do you really need me to go through and quote them all?

My second statement was on Takamatsu-sensei’s involvement in reforming the Kukishin Budo on behalf of Kuki Takaharu. This is documented on the Kukishinden website.

The third was on Takamatsu-sensei’s problems and problems and split with the organisation he partnered in setting up and Hatsumi-sensei becoming the martial soke of Kukishin Ryu. I have talked to soke at his house about it, was shown the menkyo and had the circumstance explained (mostly from my wife asking questions). I only gave a taste of this conversation and others but you can talk to soke directly.



No one denied this. What's your point? It actually supports what I said.

Quote:


Please name the “professional researchers” that have investigated this history?


Kacem and some amateur historians on here.

Quote:


All I’ve done is lay out the mundane facts of the early history of the pre-Bujinkan based on the cosistant statements and writings of Takamatsu-sensei and Hatsumi-sensei. I have heard Hatsumi-sensei talk to me about the early history and the Togakure Ryu being from Toda-sensei in such a way as to leave me no doubt that he believes Takamatsu-sensei’s version of events to be correct.


So you simply believe it is true. That is all you had to say. That must mean you are correct and my statement is false. Thanks for the strong evidence.

Well I believe my statements are true. There is more real evidence out there than you believing Hatsumi, who believed what Takamatsu said.

Faith is strong with you son but faith alone doesn't make it true.

Quote:

Correcting your statements


The only statement that needs correcting is that Togakure Ryu kunai (Juppo Sessho) comes from Kukishin Juttejutsu and not the tessen justu as stated earlier.

What is the point again? Where is the fault in my logic or my original stetements? You simply believe Hatsumi really believed Takamatsu.

Let's stick to the sword work.

Posted on: 2010/4/23 11:40
_________________
You can't block my ip address forever. You can also try to mess with my account because you don't like what I say. I'm not going anywhere. You know who you are! HA!
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kenjutsu vs. Ono-ha Itto Ryu
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2010/1/13 13:26
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 173
Offline
Once again all you can do is try to strengthen your “argument from ignorance” by heaping doubt on the conventionally held premise to strengthen your own assertions. You are not providing any more research, evidence or detail to support your own points just going into attack mode on the opposing, conventional point of view.

Once again, the large quantity of densho, letters etc by Takamatsu-sensei would have to be studied and followed up to “prove” any of his assertions – if anyone felt this was necessary.

If you choose to doubt his claims due to lack of evidence sighted by yourself – that is fine – I have no problem with that.

If you are going to call up some other alternate history and announce it to the world as the “truth” then you will need a lot more than the simple game playing of an “argument from ignorance based on the lack of evidence for one view making another true.

Posted on: 2010/4/23 11:52
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kenjutsu vs. Ono-ha Itto Ryu
Cant Stay Offline
Joined:
2003/8/1 23:57
From Hamina, Finland
Group:
村民 :: Villager
議長 :: Mod
師導士会 :: Shidoshikai
Posts: 1682
Offline
...hmm, is the still no method to split a thread? We are derailing that much.

Posted on: 2010/4/23 15:19
_________________
Ari Julku
Shidōshi
Bujinkan Ōari Dōjō
(Bujinkan Budōka since 1985)
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kenjutsu vs. Ono-ha Itto Ryu
Permanent Village Fixture
Joined:
2003/2/12 6:15
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 311
Offline
Duncan

You do realize everything you have been saying is describing your own reaction to my conversation. Instead of discussing the things I said you simply believe it is true because many people think it is so. Not to mention because you believe Hatsumi truly believed Takamatsu.

Argument of ignorance indeed from your end.

Unlike those who claim to have anthentic and complete ninjutsu lineage all your proof consists letters by Takamatsu who character is questionable and your personal feeling.

Why don't show how my first post is wrong? Show me how the weapon material isn't Kukishin. Show me how those weapons unique to Togakure aren't geared to fighting on boats or near water. Why would Togakure Ryu have a underwater breathing tube as secret weapon? Wouldn't that be more useful for those who are near water? Like a Suigun or pirates.

What's your point again? If you were an American then you would undoubtably be GOP because your argument doesn't make sense.

Posted on: 2010/4/23 21:24
_________________
You can't block my ip address forever. You can also try to mess with my account because you don't like what I say. I'm not going anywhere. You know who you are! HA!
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kenjutsu vs. Ono-ha Itto Ryu
Honorary Villager
Joined:
2006/2/7 0:29
From Saint Louis
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 39
Offline
"Why would Togakure Ryu have a underwater breathing tube as secret weapon? Wouldn't that be more useful for those who are near water? Like a Suigun or pirates."

Isn't it just as likely the "underwater breathing tube" was created for use in small mountain streams, castle moats, and inland lakes?

Posted on: 2010/4/24 1:17
_________________
Vince Wilkins
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kenjutsu vs. Ono-ha Itto Ryu
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2005/12/1 16:49
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 181
Offline
Dear Jwillz,

Did Mr Zoughari tell you face to face that he thinks Togakure is made up or what are you trying to imply? Or do you mean that, although he has done research he hasnt showed you any proof? Did you meet him in person and ask him?

Last time I checked he seemed very convinced about Takamatsus relation to Toda being real and what he learned from him too. Oh, yes, there was some proof there too...There is lots of Kuden here that dont get thrown around on the internet so once again, what do you imply by dragging his nami inte the discussion?

Regards / Skuggvarg

Posted on: 2010/4/24 5:28
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer



« 1 (2) 3 4 5 ... 9 »




[Advanced Search]


Today's Sponsor