Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Socialize
 

Recent Topics
Topic Replies Last Post
Wedding gift... can someone help me to translate it? 6 2018/6/30 20:50
Barga18
Aomori-Ken 0 2018/6/19 10:27
hanzo-tou
Certificates 0 2018/5/8 4:34
schistkicker
Home Project: Shadowbox 3 2018/4/25 21:44
roufus
Ichiba 0 2018/2/21 1:18
Dpinga

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



(1) 2 »


Internal Martial Arts vs Budo Taijutsu
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/8/15 0:56
From Adelaide
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 188
Offline
Hi all, Sorry if this is a long one but I want to get peoples view on this (especially some of the people that have been training for a long time). I have a Interest in Chinese Internal Martial (mainly tai chi, hsing I and Ba gua) Arts and as such have noticed a few similarities...
1) The sensitivity to Energy/Chi is built up with 2 person pre set and free style sparring (in my case at training we learn the techniques for most of the lesson and devote a little bit of time at the end to "playing")
2) Development of balance/rooting/internal alignment via posture and other techniques (sanshin and kamae?)
3) Use of body weight/Unit as a whole
4) Sensitivity to Energy (Sakki? etc)
5) Use of non linear angles (circles, squares, etc where as som other martial styles only use from point A to point B and no other consideration for redirecting force, sideways angles etc)
6) Use of Henka in that there is no "set" way to perform a technique as everyone has a different body structure/preference as to how they perform a technique
7) Use of adaption to ones own body (muscles, chi, nervous system) in that you can perform the technique the way you like that won't put you off balance (like some other martial arts do)
8) Gradually increasing hits to overcome shock from real combat (Develop Physical and energy resistance/feeling)
9) Using subtle energies such as the mind throwing that I have heard of yet not seen in both IMA and BT... supposedly by doing this it helps to develop ones mind to stop being overcome by some one elses?
10) use of the joints in combination (hand/feet, leg/arm, knee/elbow) in that keeps body balanced and energy flow stable
11) use of various hand styles (in that power comes from movement of body rather than muscles)
12) calm mind/human approach, as opposed to soem styles where they use muscles/adrenalin/animal tendencies to win a fight (though the calm mind in BT comes through training instead of in IMA it comes through training, holding poses, meditation etc)

Just wondering if anyone had any feedback as although there is no IMA places near where I live I would like to see if picking up some of the IMA practises found in books etc might help my BT even more as they seem to have quite a few similarities (doesnt some of the ryu come from chinese people anyway?)

Tim Wise

Posted on: 2003/9/14 16:33
_________________
"fear is the mind killer..."
Tim Wise
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Internal Martial Arts vs Budo Taijutsu
Occasional Visitor
Joined:
2003/7/10 5:55
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 7
Offline
A member of my training group has studied Hsing-I for about five years...but is now torn as to whether or not he will continue with that training. From what I have observed, the Hsing-I has served him well, and really contriubtes to his taijutsu.

I have also seen some of what Charles Daniel is up to these days, which in many ways, could be boiled down to a unique blending of Taijutsu and IMA principles. Over the last year, Charles did a two part seminar in Allentown, Pennsylvania detailing how one may blend IMA principles with their taijutsu (both attacking and defending) with some very powerful results.

But back to my own training group...the gentleman with Hsing-I experience is by far a better striker than the average student of taijutsu, largely because he is able to take the principle of attacking with the whole body and bring to it the added benefit of internal energy training via Hsing-I. Striking drills with this gentleman are interesting to say the least.

At the same time, he has found that the Bujinkan contains much more practicality and hands on combat experience than his IMA training...which has lead him to continue with Hsing-I largely for the qigong benefit.

I won't speak for him...so I can't really go through your point by point questions...though I will say, from my experience training with him, that as far as energy sensitivity and saaki goes, BBT and IMA approach these topics very differently, with very different results. When it comes to sensing and responding to "intent" or "energy", I think BBT has the market cornered. In generating "energy" for attack or defense, however, it does not fare as well when compared to the IMA, in my experience.

There are perhaps more similarities than differences between BBT and IMA (particularly when comparing IMA to other styles) but make no mistake, they are two different animals.

At the seminar I attended, Charles pointed out that, in his opinion, Tai Chi Chuan was a great way to improve sensitivity and flow in your taijutsu. I am a shiatsu therapist, and during my bodywork studies we began each class with thrity minutes of Tai Chi...and I'd have to agree with him.

As far as gleaning anything pracitce from books...I'm skeptical. A better understanding of what Chinese IMA are, yes. Actual technique/practices...I would strongly counsel against that. Energy work is definitely not something to dabble in without guidance.

My two cents,

bryan dieterich

Posted on: 2003/9/15 2:49
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Charles Daniel?
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/8/15 0:56
From Adelaide
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 188
Offline
Thnaks Bryan, who is Charles Daniel if you dont mind me asking? (Im in Australia so havent heard of alot of names) Ive actually decided to forgoe the books, as after some more research it does seem more harmful than anything to practice without a teacher...

Posted on: 2003/9/15 15:15
_________________
"fear is the mind killer..."
Tim Wise
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Charles Daniel?
Occasional Visitor
Joined:
2003/7/10 5:55
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 7
Offline
Hi Tim...no problem. Charles Daniel was one of the early Westerner's to study with Soke in the late 1970's. He's written several books on taijutsu and Japanese swordsmanship (including Taijutsu: Ninja Art of Unarmed Combat). In the mid 1990's he dropped out of the public eye somewhat and spent some time training in Internal Chinese and Tibetan arts, and is now offering seminars (and perhaps teaching regularly, I'm not sure) through the Buinkan once again.

bryan

Posted on: 2003/9/16 12:29
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Internal Martial Arts vs Budo Taijutsu
Permanent Village Fixture
Joined:
2003/5/31 18:13
From Cleveland, Ohio USA
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 304
Offline
Hi,

I have trained in various Chinese internal styles over the years. What I have experienced is that if you pay close attention to what soke teaches and look at someone like Shiraishi sensei in particular, you will see many things exatly the same as in Chinese internal arts.

I would not suggest actually going out and becoming a student of a school to learn them unless you have allot of extra time, but books videos and seminars may help you understand the principals more clearly and thus allow you to pick them up in Bujinkan training.

In my opinion tai chi hsing yi ba gua ba ji and the rest while they teach the principals each has a unique method of teaching and delivery of the principals based on their own unique history and culture and tradition.

It gets in the way to learn these aspects of other arts, I personally feel we should study the Bujinkan way of doing these things so we can get good at the bujinkan way and not be half baked. So tat is why I suggest books videos and seminars as an aside, a form of reference study to help expediate learning the same things in the Bujinkan.

For some this may help, for others, this may create trouble. It is up to the individual.

Hope that helps some.

regards,

Posted on: 2003/9/16 13:17
_________________
Rick Ray
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Internal Martial Arts vs Budo Taijutsu
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/8/15 0:56
From Adelaide
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 188
Offline
Thanks for your replies...

yeah I dont want to cross contaminate... its hard enough to focus on one art and like SOke says its better to speak fluent than in dialects (BTT than a combination of arts)
However IMA is one of my favourite research topics atm, and I do prefer the taoist way of thinking as such...
thanks once again

Posted on: 2003/9/16 18:12
_________________
"fear is the mind killer..."
Tim Wise
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Internal Martial Arts vs Budo Taijutsu
Active Kutakian
Joined:
2003/2/7 9:39
From Sweden
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 101
Offline
Don´t want to sound like an a**hole, but hasn´t Soke advised against training at least Qi Gong? I also think I´ve heard somewhere that Soke mentioned we do not have to train in Chi, as Bujinkan is supposed to be beyond Chi. Again, this is hearsay, so it´s not to be taken for a fact (hmm, I should know better than to put words in Soke´s mouth that I haven´t heard from the man himself.).

Johan Grönwall

Posted on: 2003/9/17 6:30
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Internal warfare
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/8/15 0:56
From Adelaide
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 188
Offline
hmmm, see Ive only been in the Bujinkan a couple of months and from what ive SEEN so far (correct me if im wrong) is basically that junan taiso and other elements of solo training are up to the individual? I know cross training in other arts and so on is frowned upon but I didnt think they were prohibited as such... I just love IMA and wanted to see peoples opinions on it as a warm up for BTT as a lot of the principles are similar, and as sumone said (was it bryan?) the striking from some IMA carried over would be beneficial... that was mainly where I was looking at people opinions... I know for one many people meditate yet doesnt Soke frown on meditation saying just train and a calm mind will come with it?...not to start an argument here but just to add my views...

Posted on: 2003/9/17 21:53
_________________
"fear is the mind killer..."
Tim Wise
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Internal warfare
Occasional Visitor
Joined:
2003/7/10 5:55
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 7
Offline
Take my view with a grain of salt, because I've only been training for eight years, but in that time its been my experience that Soke rarely speaks out strongly against anything...at least not directly.

I was practicing qigong/dao yin/neigong prior to my joining the Bujinkan and continue to do so. Soke has expressed that religion/spirituality lies in the hands of the individual. As these practices are connected to my overall spiritual views, I would be highly surprised that anyone within the Bujinkan would dictate against that, any more than they would dictate regarding...say...alcohol consumption or dietary customs.

I make no pretense that internal energy work is connected to Bujinkan practice, so I don't see why there would be a problem. They're simply two large focuses in my life.

bryan dieterich

Posted on: 2003/9/18 3:32
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


spirituality
Kutaki Postmaster
Joined:
2003/8/15 0:56
From Adelaide
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 188
Offline
sorry to seem to change the topic of this thread *gulp* but your views intrigue me alot bryan... after being immersed in the western view of everything (views on christianity and western religion, science... especially to do with the mind as I was diagnosed with manic depression yet somehow it vanished last year... I still don't know what the change was... ) I've been looking into taoism lately, just as it was one of the religions I knew practically nothing about... taoism kinda sucks to research, its like researching ninja... theres so much thats relative yet a strand of the whole thing... I guess like the many churches of christianity (thered be over several thousand branches around? ) the main view that interests me is the "water" methods taught such as meditation where theres no external influences and no thought or focus on anything, you just let your mind remain calm and wander... ive only been practising this for a few weeks... yet I love it, ive only been able to feel chi a few times in my life before and now I can feel it just popup at times... id be interested to know what internal practises you do bryan? as once said before, books are a great insight but they cant teach you the real thing (and thats harder for me... in Adelaide Australia there is only two qi gong/tai chi instructors that are advertised... and the first I checked out seemed very bogus thanks for all your help the people that have provided me with feedback

Posted on: 2003/9/18 12:11
_________________
"fear is the mind killer..."
Tim Wise
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer



(1) 2 »




[Advanced Search]


Today's Sponsor