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Re: Read Kacem's New Book(Very disappointing!) Proof wa?
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Skuggvarg

No I am not. The book has many sources true but those sources pertain mostly to the other material he talks about like Karate, Judo and NIR. Not to mention the numerous pictures. Those have been questioned by others.

The references that refer to the Bujinkan and Togakure Ryu are based on Takamatsu's writings including his Autobiography. No references outside of that is used to verify anything about Togakure Ryu. Information I might add that has never been proven true.

As far as the Shoninki,Ninpiden and the Ban. Those are recognized and verified text on Ninjutsu. They all have many things in common. More in common than differences. So do the Koga material. Many people including Takamatsu say they have the same Taijutsu. Only problem is those recognized Ninjutsu books, not to mention Fujita Seiko, Kawakami's authentic family Ninjutsu books, nor Katori Shinto Ryu say anything about the Taijutsu, Gyokko, Koto etc.......

Takamatsu did inherit more schools than just the three in the Bujinkan from Ishitani. Not to mention Kito Ryu jujutsu. You can see that from the other schools he passed on to other people and groups.

Kacem can confirm that as well! A lot Bujinkan people don't know that.

Point is Kacem just like Hatsumi making claims about certain things about Ninjutsu. In all walks life that mean the burden of proof is on them. Not the other way around. The only time it isn't is when it is widely accepted truth or it is labeled as fiction.

Neither is the case about the book or Togakure Ryu.

Kacem alternative history including statements made about other schools need to be proven.

It is amazing that everyone is trying to mostly blame Tuttle for the problems. It is amazing because they have done very well in the past with other Gaijin authored books.

Too many excuses!!!! TSK TSK TSK.

Posted on: 2010/6/15 20:20
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Re: Read Kacem's New Book(Very disappointing!) Proof wa?
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Skuggvarg,

In fact, Fujita Seiko (accepted as a Koga Ninja) went and learn physical combat skills from other teachers. His Ninjutsu was inherited thru his family.

Katori Shinto has Ninjutsu but only techniques not actual Taijutsu. Kawakami books have techniques but not Taijutsu. Same thing for the three Ninja books.

All these recognized and verifiable sources of Ninjutsu all say the same thing.


Takamatsu, Hatsumi and now Kacem say differently. They are making claims that go against the widely accepted truths. All Ninjutsu shouldn't be judged using Togakure Ryu (unverified) as the measuring stick. Togakure ryu has to be compared to the ruler of the other verified Ninjutsu information. If it isn't the same then it false or show proof. The burden of proof is on them.

What is their answers?

a. We got it but we are not going to show. You should just believe it.

b. Or my book isn't suppose to explain anything. It is not that kind of history book.

c. If it is bad then it is the fault of the publisher.

d. The material all written by Takamatsu can't be verified but you should believe it is true because I have no reason to think otherwise.

It seems everybody including me is at fault except for the author or the people making the claims. See the problem here?

Excuses!!! TSK TSK

Posted on: 2010/6/15 20:35
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Re: Read Kacem's New Book(Very disappointing!) Proof wa?
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Quote:
The book has many sources true but those sources pertain mostly to the other material he talks about like Karate, Judo and NIR.


The list in the end of the book is about documents connected to ninjutsu, not karate, judo, aikido or the like. It is by far the most comprehensive list Ive seen. You keep saying we shouldnt only look at Togakure ryu and obviously Mr Zoughari has checked many, many other sources. If you dont think he is lying then you should accept that he has read the text you mentioned, kanji by kanji. How many that argue over ninjutsu do you think have read the whole bansenshukai in its original language?

The book is about ninjutsu history in general and the history and stories connected to the personal documents of Hatsumi sensei, which Mr Zoughari have had the honor of reading. It is not about proving the Togakure Ryu to non-believers. Maybe there will be some in the future. Who knows?

Regards / Skuggvarg

Posted on: 2010/6/15 21:44
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Re: Read Kacem's New Book(Very disappointing!) Proof wa?
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Quote:
It seems everybody including me is at fault except for the author or the people making the claims. See the problem here?


No, not really. Im sorry you feel that way but Im quite sure it wont change in the near future. Go to the sources is the only advise that can be given and Im afraid those most critical wont do so. Its still Isshi Soden in that regard and will hopefully stay that way

Regards / Skuggvarg

Posted on: 2010/6/15 21:48
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Re: Read Kacem's New Book(Very disappointing!) Proof wa?
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I think the book was excellent - and the wealth of information squised into these 200 pages was immense. I loved every part of it - knowledge and presentation. Looking at the looong list of referanses, I can but imaging the hard work that lies behind these pages.

It is most definitely one of the better books on ninjutsu written by a non-japanese, and I hope the author writes many more books.

As for types and such, it was not really anything that disturbed the flow of reading, so it is not something to make a big deal about.

And sure - we all hoped that great secrets were to be revealed and the lineage debate should be once and for all ended - but hey - we can not blame the author for our expectations



Posted on: 2010/6/15 22:34
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Re: Read Kacem's New Book(Very disappointing!) Proof wa?
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I would like to add a few things on the book, which I thought was very nice BTW. Indeed I must agree with Mr. Spada on a few things. It is not an academic work (even though it is based on academic research), so different standards apply. And indeed, publishers are usually concerned with only one thing, selling books, which often leads to bad final editing and over-hyped marketing. I admit, I was a bit disappointed to not find the 'proof' in the book everyone was talking about, yet this feeling was indeed generated by the marketing of the book (though there is one very interesting piece of circumstantial evidence there, see below).

Now a few things on the quality. There are indeed a number of typo's and flaws with the notes, which is a pity. Yet as a history book, the approach is actually very thourough and modern. I am an historian myself with a specialisation in Medieval and Celtic studies, by no means this is Japanese of course, yet the fields of study have many 'technical' overlaps: both areas work with old texts with problems such as difficult script, bad handwriting, bad condition, social context of the writer etc., and both deal with a huge oral culture and a lot of mystification in the modern period. So I believe I am qualified to give a piece of my mind on this one.
What Mr. Zoughari has done is very thorough. The appendixes on other Budo and Bujutsu that everyone goes on about are to paint the picture, to set the stage for people who do not know a lot about these things. Of course most people in the Kans know a lot of these things, yet the book was not solely written for them/us! And they are added as an appendix for a reason. This is quite common practice.
Now on the general approach. He discusses the subject from two angles, 'public' and 'private' history. This is very enlightening, helpful and modern. The 'public' history presents a lot of info that was not availeble for the average western reader before. And the approach in the second part is a tool that one sees a lot in certain fields of history and anthropology these days and is based on the Hermeneutics of Heidegger. When researching a very closed subject (a tribe, a religious sect, a ryuha etc) it is impossible to give the complete picture from the outside. One has to get in. Even if this means that ne can then not be 100 percent objective because one is part of the subject. It is attempted to present history from within, to present it how the members of the society studied lived it. This kind of approach to research offers a very novel way to look at phenomena like these and is extremely helpful and interesting to historians, and I believe mr. Zoughari paints a brilliant picture from the inside.
And tho go to the comments of Mr Cummins, indeed I believe he approached the book from the wrong angle. He approaches it as an old fashioned academic work of history should be approached. Wrong! He seems to be an archaeologist and these people tend to have a very stric view of what is evidence and what not, in history one can not, never find one absolute truth because most of the time we are working with the perceptions of a lot of people from a lot of periods and areas... As I said, the book has a very modern approach and on top of that is not intended for the acaemic community. Mr. Zoughari is of course aware of this, he would have put out a much larger book if this had been the case (and he probably would have had to pay for the publishing himself since such a book would not sell enough copies to be profitable...).

Now on a different note the proof: on p 176 in note 67 there is something interesting which I have not seen in any of the discussions on this book (it refers to the Iran-ki on p 56 in the book and actually it should be note 68 but in the notes it is 67... one of the by now famous typo's): a list of rebellious Iga ninja families are given and alongside the famous ones such as Momochi, there appear Togakure and Toda. This is of course by no means proof of Takamatsu Sensei's claims yet it is very, very interesting circumstantial evidence in my opinion. I know Toda is quite a common name but Togakure isn't. And yes it is a village, but it is not in Iga. I am intrigued by this...

So very long post but just my 2ct.

regards.

Posted on: 2010/6/28 18:14
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Re: Read Kacem's New Book(Very disappointing!) Proof wa?
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Tom,

You need to put your full name in your profile, and welcome to kutaki.

That was a nice well thought out post.

I can't comment on it due to the fact I haven't read the book.

Posted on: 2010/6/28 19:25
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Re: Read Kacem's New Book(Very disappointing!) Proof wa?
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Will do!

Thomas Dresscher.

Posted on: 2010/6/28 19:27
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Re: Read Kacem's New Book(Very disappointing!) Proof wa?
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jwills79

Which 起倒流 was it? There are several branches of the ryu ha.

Posted on: 2010/6/28 19:51
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Re: Read Kacem's New Book(Very disappointing!) Proof wa?
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What i would like to add is that he give a pretty good physical description of several makimono of the Togakure Ryu on p. 68-69. He states there that he believes that they had been written in the Edo era (so pre-Takamatsu). He does not really tell the reader why he believes this, yet from the context it seems that this is based on the handwriting and the language.
Of course this is no real proof, yet to an expert of such texts, modern forgeries are quite easy to identify because they are extremely difficult to make. You have to have the right paper, the right ink, know the correct handwriting and language and be very, very consequent in this. This is almost impossible to do.
So if Mr. Zoughari has dated these scrolls based on his knowledge of Japanese language and history, I would be inclined to believe him. The problem here is of course that these scrolls can not be reviewed by someone else, but this is sort of unavoidable when one studies an intiatory lineage and in this case we would have to trust the author.

regards.

Posted on: 2010/6/29 1:20
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