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Re: Opinions or personal attacks
Villager
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Very true Ed,
I see it the same way.

Posted on: 2010/10/16 18:34
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Re: Opinions or personal attacks
Villager
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I think Marty Dunsky pretty well summed it up, but if there was any further questions about what a ryu is then look here:

http://www.koryu.com/library/wmuromoto3.html

Posted on: 2010/10/18 5:39
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Re: Opinions or personal attacks
Kutaki Postmaster
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I've read that article before. Have you? It is about how ryu-ha have developed over the ages.The section about gendai budo like kendo, aikido and judo that have developed from an amalgamation of koryu, Muromoto is quite clear in pointing out that they do not count as ryu-ha. That is completely at odds with your "in this ryu"

The ryu-ha that we are dealing with are nine and we all know the names. Our seniors in those ryu-ha are Soke (of course) and the original Shihan. None of them were subject to personal attacks in any threads that I've seen, so your argument doesn't make sense. Quote:

Kage-Ronin wrote:
I think Marty Dunsky pretty well summed it up, but if there was any further questions about what a ryu is then look here:

http://www.koryu.com/library/wmuromoto3.html

Posted on: 2010/10/18 6:43
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Re: Opinions or personal attacks
Villager
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Were we talking about judo, aikido, or kendo?

No I beleive we were talking about the Bujinkan.

My opinion on the matter is clear; don't like the way it is run or how things are conducted? There's the door, don't let it hit you on the way out. (I.e don't renew your membership or continue to be part of it)

I've said all I am going to say on here.

If someone needs to talk about it more, contact me via my e-mail in my profile.

Posted on: 2010/10/18 6:49
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Tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
that here obedient to their laws we lie.
........................................
"Come and take them!" King Leonidas' reply to Xerxes' demand the Spartans lay down their arms at the Battle of Thermopylae.
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Re: Opinions or personal attacks
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I think it is important to note the difference when talking about a "ryuha" and a "kan". The two are very different. Bujinkan is not a ryu or it would be written as such.

There is no Gyokkokan, Kotokan, Takagi Yoshinkan, etc. However, within the 'kan', those ryuha exist.

Since none of us are actually ranked in any ryuha, then we can really not claim to be part of any ryuha. Rather, we are ranked as part of the 'kan' or school of which those ryuha are taught. This is very different from any menkyo from a koryu, regardless if gendai or not.

It is important to consider these differences, especially when trying to apply the same rules of conduct or rituals. The only "traditions" we have are those implemented or started since the creation of the Bujinkan, of which they may or may not be tied to any particular ryuha or custom that existed before the Bujinkan and based entirely on the level of importance placed on them by the individual.

For instance, we have the bow-in and bow-out ritual that came with the Bujinkan. Yet, nobody is required to follow it. Even in Soke's classes, those who have a preference to avoid such rituals are not admonished for it. It's not a show of disrespect. Rather, it's a show of mutual respect to allow one to take part in it or allow another to choose to not participate in it.

There are also customs which are tied to historical context and traditions that are mandatory in other arts, but often are overlooked in the Bujinkan except by those who find such things important. For instance, how many in the Bujinkan really know how to hand a sword to someone?

The Sempai/Kohai relationship is a universal concept, but something that isn't universally given the same level of importance. When budo was taught as part of being in military service, then sempai/kohai held importance as this applied to the rigid structure of a military organization. Much of that mindset is still ingrained in today's martial arts, even to such a degree that sensei will run their classes in similar fashion. In those classes, sempai hold a status similar to actual rank in a pseudo-military structure.

The Bujinkan has never been set up that way, regardless of how the ryuha within it were taught "back in the day". In fact, the culture of the Bujinkan is quite the opposite. So, with that you will get people who have different levels of importance on the sempai/kohai structure. You actually get people who believe respect is something to be earned, not just accepted with the title or rank. They will listen to someone only when it actually makes sense to them, not just take their word for it.

No matter how one may feel about the perspectives of another, there is certainly enough room or capacity in the Bujinkan for it all. Therefore, mutual respect has to be the higher goal, since our own container or capacity is revealed in our narrow mindedness, inability to understand the 'why' of a ritual or custom, or refusal to look past our own bias to be able to understand what somebody is really trying to say.

Posted on: 2010/10/18 7:34
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I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, or in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Opinions or personal attacks
Kutaki Postmaster
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Mr Dumas,

I was partway through writing a reply, but your post shows what I meant with much more detail and explanation so thank you. :)

Posted on: 2010/10/18 7:39
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Re: Opinions or personal attacks
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Quote:
If you decide that Ed Martin 'should' or 'can' give advice, then maybe you should go and reflect on the structure of the organization to which you claim to be a part of.


- Mark Spada


Moderatore Note: And if you decide that you can post without being disrespectful and immature, you'll be allowed to post again.

Posted on: 2010/10/18 9:37
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Re: Opinions or personal attacks
Village Old Timer
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Quote:

Kage-Ronin wrote:


Like it or not, Ed is a senior in this ryu we are willing participants in. If he says "your foot goes here, not there"; I am going to listen to him.

If a person decides that Ed 'shouldn't' or 'can't' give them advice, the maybe the person should go and reflect on the structure of the ryu whether or not they want to continue to be part of it.


Ed isn't a part of "my dojo" he isn't "my teacher",he is a part of the organization I'm in, but not someone that has any bearing on "my training". He is one of the many representatives of the organization. So if he says "my foot goes here, not there", I may or may not listen to him.

Posted on: 2010/10/19 1:00
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Re: Opinions or personal attacks
Kutaki Postmaster
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I think I can guess where Ed would like the foot to go, but I think that with Mark the feeling is mutual, except that the tabi is on the other foot.

Is this really getting anywhere or do we all have the jist by now?


Posted on: 2010/10/19 2:32
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