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What is the difference between Suiren and Suitonjutsu?
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Hello!

I would like to know the main difference between thse two and where I could get good and trusted references (video, internet, books, teachers...) on this, if any.

Thank you in advance.

Posted on: 2010/10/11 13:27
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DIEGO F. GONZALEZ ARGUMEDO
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Re: What is the difference between Suiren and Suitonjutsu?
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Hi Diego, Suiren (swimming skills) is part of Suitonjutusu (use of water skills)

Posted on: 2010/10/12 1:15
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Re: What is the difference between Suiren and Suitonjutsu?
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Thanks! Really useful information.

Posted on: 2010/10/12 14:16
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Re: What is the difference between Suiren and Suitonjutsu?
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Looking at the Kanji it would suggest;

Suiren = swimming, water practice
Suitonjutsu = water escaping techniques, using water skills for evasion/escape

Posted on: 2010/10/12 16:24
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Re: What is the difference between Suiren and Suitonjutsu?
Kutaki Postmaster
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I need to practice my underwater swordsmanship, it's a bit rusty.


Posted on: 2010/10/13 9:11
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Re: What is the difference between Suiren and Suitonjutsu?
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Hmmm so we can say that Suiren is included inside Suitonjutsu? I want to be clear on this because I'm hosting a small workshop on the beach and I plan to cover some techniques like kihon happô in waist deep water or how to crawl from the sea to the shore. I'm covering some, just some, swimming techniques but that's just like 5% of the whole thing.

Of course it's nothing fancy but I just want to get and advertice the rigth info. (not saying daishô sabaki and work with karate's sai) Thanks.


Posted on: 2010/10/14 6:48
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Re: What is the difference between Suiren and Suitonjutsu?
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This is the type of subject that always invokes the same question, i.e. are you teaching suiren/suitonjutsu that have been passed down from Soke, or just doing water related training and calling it suiren/suitonjutsu, and is it okay to do the latter if you explain that you are doing so and why? And if iy permissable to call your own water training 'suiren/suitonjutsu', is it permissable to call it 'Bujinkan Suiren/Suitonjutsu'?

For example, I am not a bad archer, but could I call my archery kyujutsu if I were to instruct someone in it? If I use ichimonji-type or kyudo-esque postures rather than western/generic archery postures, do my own archery skills become kyujutsu? I could not with integrity call my archery skills 'Bujinkan Kyujutsu' because even if they are taijutsu-inspired to a degree, they do not come from any of the ryuha nor are they of Soke's own design.

There are many instances where we have to come up with our own occidental version of things, e.g. herb lore according to our local flora, and anything relating to an environment different to that of historical/modern Japan, but we still call taijutsu 'taijutsu' even if adapted to suit fighting in a manner for which it was intended, against types of opponents for whom it was not envisaged it would be applied when they were originally created, e.g. martial arts not native to Japan or Asia, physiologies and other factors not native to Japan or Asia.

Posted on: 2010/10/14 8:15
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Re: What is the difference between Suiren and Suitonjutsu?
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It's obvious that I'm not teaching it as Bujinkan-one-and-only-buy-one-get-one-free-my-super-duper-own-western-type-of-training way. This is me practicing Rokkon Shôjô in my own way: having a bunch of my best friends enjoying budô in nature.

Of course, out of respect for them I wanted to know what to call the activity because I wasn't going to invite them to a BBQ and end up training.

IMHO: I respect the Bujinkan enough to know where I stand and the do's and dont's; but I also think/feel that a Dôjô is a lab where you experiment to find your own answers. The way that I see it: you are a member of the Bujinkan (not expelled or runaway), you train respecting the tradition and Sôke, but you tell your students to train in white gi and wear color belts... Is that Bujinkan? You pay your fees, train every year in Japan with Sôke and train with a Shihan of the Shitenno. My question once again, is that the Bujinkan? Is a Bujinkan with a personal touch? Don't we all adapt it to suit ourselves? Aren't we changing it at least one bit in our own western mind no matter how often and long we train in Japan?

To be clear: I NEVER intend to do something "my way" and call it Bujinkan or the way Sôke teaches. I think we have enough posers and Sôke wannabes in the organization already. I just want to call "duck" to Daffy or Donald when I see them not call them anythng else.

Peace!



Posted on: 2010/10/15 15:24
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Re: What is the difference between Suiren and Suitonjutsu?
Kutaki Postmaster
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Of course. I was not being accusatory, I just think it is an interesting take on the way we all do things.

The dojo as laboratory is an excellent analogy.

And Soke does tell us to "Play".

I wouldn't try to cross a deep river in full armour using a spear though, at least not without backup from modern CABA!

Posted on: 2010/10/15 19:46
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Re: What is the difference between Suiren and Suitonjutsu?
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Quote:

Arkhael wrote:
It's obvious that I'm not teaching it as Bujinkan-one-and-only-buy-one-get-one-free-my-super-duper-own-western-type-of-training way. This is me practicing Rokkon Shôjô in my own way: having a bunch of my best friends enjoying budô in nature.

Of course, out of respect for them I wanted to know what to call the activity because I wasn't going to invite them to a BBQ and end up training.

Why bring the terms Suiren or Suitonjutsu into the equation at all, why not simply say it as it is - Taijutsu in water?

Posted on: 2010/10/15 21:18
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