Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Socialize
 

Recent Topics
Topic Replies Last Post
Certificates 0 5/8 4:34
schistkicker
Home Project: Shadowbox 3 4/25 21:44
roufus
Ichiba 0 2/21 1:18
Dpinga
Santa Rosa Bujinkan Dojo 6 2/10 9:38
Bumbling-budoka
Kyudo within the nine schools 47 1/3 22:40
Unsubscribed

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



« 1 ... 4 5 6 (7)


Re: An article with solid advice across arts
Village Old Timer
Joined:
2009/1/11 18:38
Group:
村民 :: Villager
議長 :: Mod
Posts: 615
Offline
Quote:

jibran wrote:
Quote:

wawup wrote:
I'm not sure if this applies to me, as my knowledge is fairly slim. But if I was in a class and a teacher showed something foolishly or dangerous for myself (without having been a prior set or series of lessons), I might be interested in having a guest come over to share their experience with the technique, or a similar out-of-the-dojo technique, it could be beneficial to my training.

I don't know if the above is logical at all. If I was shown something dangerous and I was none-the-wiser... I think I'd welcome a guest sharing knowledge with me.

However... I'm not sure if that really falls under unsolicited.


A lot of people have been bringing up straw man examples like this involving an incompetent main instructor teaching something and a competent guest instructor correcting.

However, given that the discussion here seems to be about Hatsumi-sensei's class, that does not apply as clearly Soke is not incompetent and instructors (by which I don't mean the shihan, I mean Westerners) trying to "explain" his teachings are more likely than not to distort them.

This is paraphrasing what I read in the thread. I don't have any personal experience with this so I have no opinion on the matter.



There isn't a straw man argument here people, illustrations and examples on their own are not straw man fallacies. They have been counter-examples and questions.

http://science.jrank.org/pages/21351/ ... xample-philosophy-by.html
and
http://www.jimpryor.net/teaching/vocab/analyses.html

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~lilyth/strawman.html
and
http://www.drury.edu/ess/Logic/Informal/Strawman.html

Or I can give you the page numbers from one of the many books I have on the subject if you like.

This thread is basically about the can/ought distinction in giving advice to non-members of your dojo.

On a side note related to this issue, how is "experience" to be understood in terms of the martial arts. It might help with determining when or who "ought" to give unsolicited advice.

(If rank in the Bujinkan wasn't so "free" or liberally given, we could use rank as a determining factor. But, it won't work.)

There is also one problem with "ought". And, we will run in to it sooner or later with the positive form. "Ought" implies an obligation, I do not have any obligation to help other peoples students or give advice to those that I do not have a tacit or implicit agreement with. The negative implication of "ought" will be easier to argue for.

Jim brought up an interesting point earlier a situation of when one "ought" to give unsolicited advice and "whom" would be qualified to give it as to avoid an "ought not".









Posted on: 2010/10/27 14:15
_________________
https://twitter.com/rjhartu
rjhartungiii.photoshelter.com


Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: An article with solid advice across arts
Frequent Visitor
Joined:
2009/5/28 10:55
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 15
Offline
Quote:
A lot of people have been bringing up straw man examples like this involving an incompetent main instructor teaching something and a competent guest instructor correcting.

However, given that the discussion here seems to be about Hatsumi-sensei's class, that does not apply as clearly Soke is not incompetent and instructors (by which I don't mean the shihan, I mean Westerners) trying to "explain" his teachings are more likely than not to distort them.

This is paraphrasing what I read in the thread. I don't have any personal experience with this so I have no opinion on the matter.


I took this [conversational topic] is a universal bujinkan idea/trend, not just for the classes at Hombu, taught by Hasumi-Sensei or one of the Shihan.

So, here's a question then, Rob.

If the unsolicited advice would be correcting a "dangerous" error, or a blatant misinterpretation of the technique, both on behalf of the teacher's instruction... ought the bujinkan member share some thoughts? Would that then be a sort of duty to fellow Bujinkan members? (in the same dojo or not?)

If the guest is to remain silent on these and a student hurts themselves, is not the guest responsible?

I'm not really discussing rank or menkyo kaiden in any of my ideas here because simply put, I don't know enough about it. I'm not sure why #Dan is "better" than another Dan of the same rank. I understand it is personal development (typically), or so I've been told, this negates it as a universal factor (imo). A lower ranked dan training and living in Japan for say 2 years even though at a lower rank, could have more recent knowledge, and maybe better knowledge from Hatsumi or whoever this individual trained under (over an American with higher rank who visits a few times a year). Nor do I think time spent in the Bujinkan is a proper qualifier as many individuals train with different levels of commitment.

Could we narrow this down to the individual's skill? If the guest/one giving unsolicited advice was right, has solid taijutsu, etc, and is gives the unsolicited advice, is this acceptable? But once it's accepted, does it then become solicited advice? (Even if posthumously?)

If the above conditions hold true but the advisee does not respect or want the advisor's opinion, is this then wrong? Or is it a case of a student being stubborn and not respecting the "right" way, regardless of who it comes from?

And yes, I'm using "right", I'm not entirely sure what this means as there seems to be multiple ways of doing a waza, at least with different feelings, or a henka of a waza, but I suppose I'd try to define "right" or "correctly" as safe, accomplishing it's goals, probably not dangerous (unknowingly dangerous that is) to the one performing the technique, and probably ok to perform on an Uke without damaging them.

(Example, I've seen one student perform a technique on another student, regardless of this white belt's ukemi and hurt the white belt, not real bad, but it could have been. The Tori was a black belt and, I'd hope, should have known better to protect their opponent.)

Posted on: 2010/10/28 2:46
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: An article with solid advice across arts
Occasional Visitor
Joined:
2008/1/7 15:56
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 10
Offline
refreshing to be on a topic that doesn't involve "saving" the bujinkan. Been busy. Will reply in more detail soon when time allows. Good conversation.

This is a good topic. We're at a time when it is more important to explain in rationalized detail why we do things the way we do. Soke is and has been very good in this regard.


Posted on: 2010/10/30 15:44
_________________
Jim Shore

Transfer the post to other applications Transfer



« 1 ... 4 5 6 (7)




[Advanced Search]


Today's Sponsor