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Re: Bujinkan Budo Densho by Carsten Kuhn
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I agree Marty, this seems to be something that many still miss. That kata is designed to teach principles, not a specific "technique". When we work with each kata I think we need to look at what it is teaching and learn that.

Posted on: 2011/10/4 23:52
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Re: Bujinkan Budo Densho by Carsten Kuhn
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Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
I agree Marty, this seems to be something that many still miss. That kata is designed to teach principles, not a specific "technique". When we work with each kata I think we need to look at what it is teaching and learn that.


How do you know you are learning the principles the kata was designed to teach if the teacher doesn't know the kata?

Posted on: 2011/10/5 0:47
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Re: Bujinkan Budo Densho by Carsten Kuhn
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A long time ago I was given the personal notes from a certain Shihan whom I respect immensely. These notes were from each kata from the shoden level of a ryuha. The notes differed slightly from Soke's video on the ryuha and from what I saw taught in various classes on the kata.

But, the notes were how the kata were interpreted by this Shihan, so they carried special value to me because they were how he saw the kata.

Were they exact densho explanations? I didn't care because I was getting a taste of seeing the kata through the eyes of that Shihan and that, to me, was "good enough" since my own perception and understanding was (and is) so much less.

I guess what I'm saying is nobody really likely is teaching straight "by the book" ryuha kata, as the "book" is filled with incomplete descriptions and even mistakes or traps. The kuden from isshi soden is where the blanks are filled and traps in the literal translations are pointed out. That's going to be different depending on the person, the student (i.e. what they are ready to receive) and the circumstances or context of the class.

In my humble opinion, this is why I honestly think ryuha descriptions from a published book (and even video) are quite pointless, as the aforementioned level of personal teaching is missing. Therefore, the point of the codified methods (i.e. densho) is equally missing.

Collectors will still acquire such things and those who know the author and respect them as an authority on the subject will purchase them, regardless how much actual nutritional value they get from it.

Posted on: 2011/10/5 1:57
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Re: Bujinkan Budo Densho by Carsten Kuhn
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After a time in this art you get to know what works and what won't Syd. Principles work regardless of the person. While it is always better to have someone with skill pointing such things out, and that really is a part of this, it is important that you develop that understanding too.

Posted on: 2011/10/5 12:46
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Re: Bujinkan Budo Densho by Carsten Kuhn
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I have to respectfully disagree with you Darren. I train with as many instructors as I can. I will never argue the value of learning this or any other art from a qualified teacher. However, it is rather expensive and difficult for me to get to Japan or even to many of the seminars within the United States. There is no real teacher near me other than Ed Martin, who I am fortunate enough to learn from once every month. I get out to see Jack Hoban's seminars when I can.

In the time between, I quench my thirst for more knowledge with books and videos. I find that where I cannot feel the techniques being demonstrated, at the least I can attempt to understand what is being shown and then try it with others with whom I might train.

Sure, they are no substitute for the real thing, but I would certainly not put them in a category of being pointless.

Posted on: 2011/10/6 12:17
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Re: Bujinkan Budo Densho by Carsten Kuhn
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Quote:

Damien wrote:
I have to respectfully disagree with you Darren. I train with as many instructors as I can. I will never argue the value of learning this or any other art from a qualified teacher. However, it is rather expensive and difficult for me to get to Japan or even to many of the seminars within the United States. There is no real teacher near me other than Ed Martin, who I am fortunate enough to learn from once every month. I get out to see Jack Hoban's seminars when I can.

In the time between, I quench my thirst for more knowledge with books and videos. I find that where I cannot feel the techniques being demonstrated, at the least I can attempt to understand what is being shown and then try it with others with whom I might train.

Sure, they are no substitute for the real thing, but I would certainly not put them in a category of being pointless.


I understand what you are saying. Something is better than nothing, right? Unfortunately, the danger you are toying with is setting up incorrect foundational understandings that take literally a tenfold of the time and energy to undo them as it took to muscle memory them. Seeking quantity over quality (i.e. collecting sources of information instead of focusing on the few things you have actually been taught firsthand) is, in opinion, a substandard manner in which to train.

And, by pointless, I don't mean worthless. Without proper instruction and direct guidance by a qualified teacher, having codified interpretations of densho kata or whatever is pointless, as it doesn't guide the student in a process of learning. That's what direct experience/training under one's teacher is for. Instead, it becomes more of a kind of "brain candy", with guesses as to how to bring it into one's body correctly.

My opinion comes from decades of training and having made those very same mistakes along the way. I am still cleaning up misunderstandings and bad habits, even after all this time.

You are free to pursue your path however you like and I'm not judging you for how you do it. There are certainly many sources of information out there. In the end, it is only you will be left with the product of those choices.

I wish you the best and hope you attain the results you seek.

Posted on: 2011/10/6 12:42
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Re: Bujinkan Budo Densho by Carsten Kuhn
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One of these days, Darren, I hope to find us training under the same roof. If your training is half as interesting as the posts you make, I'll have a lot to learn that day.

Not in like a weird sarcastic way either.

Posted on: 2011/10/7 2:29
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Re: Bujinkan Budo Densho by Carsten Kuhn
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Quote:

Damien wrote:
One of these days, Darren, I hope to find us training under the same roof. If your training is half as interesting as the posts you make, I'll have a lot to learn that day.

Not in like a weird sarcastic way either.


I understand what you mean. I look forward to that day. I'm sure by then, you will have some great lessons to share as well.

Happy training!

Posted on: 2011/10/7 4:26
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