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Re: Kacem's Interview
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Carson, perhaps we should give Dr Zoughari the benefit of the doubt regarding the word 'real'. I can see how that would have a different connotation in French, which is his native language.

Posted on: 2010/11/4 23:45
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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I don't really feel (at this time) that separating Hatsumi from the Bujinkan. to be largely ludicrous for a moment, President Obama runs the US and the government organization (maybe we should just say Federal?) But not all pieces of the US government follow his lead, agree with him, work with him, obey him, not even every member of his White House team. Any organization, political or otherwise can be this way.

The feeling I got from that passage was that Hatsumi has laid down the law so to speak in one way, and many students are taking different branches. Maybe Hatsumi has oked it, I don't know, but I don't feel Hatsumi is responsible for every screw up in the US dojos, from what I understand, he's allowed a sort of "police yourselves" policy.

Or perhaps the shut up and train argument can be implemented. It was before my time, but as I understand, he said shut up and train in response to dojo politics. But how many people get caught up in the politics?

So I do agree with the distinction Kacem is making here. Maybe it's a language issue, but I feel he's talking about the Students of the Bujinkan vs. the Soke of the Bujinkan.

"
But he does have a grade. He is (or was) a lower grade for some time because he refused it. To me refusing something shows that you put value on it. I agree in principle with what I think he is saying though (judge the persons ability not their rank)."

I actually found his remark about no grade to be intriguing. To pose a question to everyone, can one cast off their rank and still be considered Bujinkan? If he doesn't recognize his rank, wear it, etc, does that mean it is no longer valid?

Quote:
Not at all! Those three techniques don’t just have the simplified meaning most practitioners give them but represent many more things. Tsuki is not just a punch but a whole way of body movement, so you can penetrate through the adversary with one blow. It’s governed by the concept of one blow-one life. Uke in reality means to accept but many people erroneously translate it as block. However, the word block has a very hard and absolute meaning. When we block, our whole body, as well as our heart, hardens and tightens , resulting in our energy being immobilized too. When our energy gets immobilized then death comes. The word uke has more to do with the flow and freedom in movement, while we respond to the everchanging demands of battle. Finally, with the term geri we mean the kicks, which also have very many demands and ingredients that can’t be seen at first glance. So, in reality I had a lot of work to do.


I liked this part a lot.

Posted on: 2010/11/5 0:32
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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Quote:

Papa-san wrote:

Ninjutsu does adapt to the person and their is something there for everyone.


Maybe it's just me but I don't feel that 'Ninjutsu' adapts to everyone. I think most people (almost everyone) get away with not 'adapting' to Ninjutsu.

There's no repercussions in the Bujinkan as an organization for doing things incorrectly. As most people practicing this art will never have to use it for what it was intended and most probably won't have to defend themselves in a life or death confrontation, there's no reality check for most people.

Don't know the kihon happo? It's okay, just nod your head when the sword comes and you get your teaching license.

Don't have a personal relationship with Soke? No problem, just get 3 other Judan to sign for you and your name is on the wall.

If you adapt it to you it's usually because you are doing something incorrectly (people with disabilities aside).


Posted on: 2010/11/5 0:53
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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Quote:

benkyoka wrote:
Quote:

Papa-san wrote:

Ninjutsu does adapt to the person and their is something there for everyone.


Maybe it's just me but I don't feel that 'Ninjutsu' adapts to everyone. I think most people (almost everyone) get away with not 'adapting' to Ninjutsu.


Well said, Mr Sked. It seems that many people are content to skip the 'shu' stage of shu-ha-ri, despite the fact that that order exists for a reason.

Posted on: 2010/11/5 1:26
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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I believe that the problem in Ninjutsu (apart from the false grades of course) is that attacks are never made in reality, with full force and intent. Therefore the defenses are also loose and trainees never learn to work with correct speed and power. Also, practitioners don’t feel the need to learn the details of every move as well as correct body alignment, necessary ingredients for a technique becoming efficient, since all is done in cooperation and no one is in danger.


I absolutely agree that there are a great number of discussion points in this interview. This is just one of the many I found particularly interesting, even though I have heard this argument too many times.

I can give a nod of agreement to many parts of this statement. That is basically because I was busted on this not too long ago by a friend of mine who reminded me of the training I did 20 years ago.

My opinion is that performing techniques at full force will eventually lead to someone getting injured. However, there is a point where I believe training can become too soft. I had toned my training down so far to accomodate others, that I was no longer performing the techniques correctly. The movements that were going into my muscle memory were sloppy at best, uneffective realistically. Fortunately a friend of mine who trained with my original teacher pointed this out to me. The movements should still be relatively safe and slow, but the intention should never be absent from your training. Perform the movements as you would in a real combative situation, but at a slow and controlled pace. Those movemtents should be the ones coming out when needed in a life threatening situation.

Posted on: 2010/11/5 2:54
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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In my opinion the way you train is the way you will be able to perform in a life threatening situation when you do not have the luxury to think.

There is a saying:
"Train hard, fight easy."
or something like this...

Posted on: 2010/11/5 3:22
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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You have to train slightly higher than your level in order to grow to the next level. But, intent has to be there from day 1. So, new students will need to move slow to avoid injury, but the strike better be accurate and going through the target - even if done slowly.

If the uke can't attack properly, then the kata won't always be the logical response.

Training with full intent is an essential kihon in training and should be learned in the first stages of training. Somewhere this seems to get left out, as I have seen sloppy attacks continue even with higher ranked students.

Last night we were training in a technique involving avoiding a thrust from a rokushakubo, then closing to take the space/balance of the uke. I kept nailing my tori dead in the chest until they finally were able to move properly to close without being struck. Being hit solidly gave their body the sensory information they needed to be able to move correctly. If I had just stuck my rokushakubo out there in a sloppy thrust, then there would be no *need* to move correctly.

So the guy has a few bruises. But, his technique was great after a few hits. That's real training in my book. You have to accept being hit, even if controlled. If one isn't prepared to accept bruises that come from this kind of learning, they should not pursue martial arts. This isn't chess club.

If you want 'reality' in your budo, you have to reflect that in your training.

Posted on: 2010/11/5 3:50
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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I also do not think that we should ever forget the other side of the intent coin.

Real intention of an attack can be a shocking experience that can leave a person frozen. I can remember training with someone who had been in this art for more than a few years and when I attacked him, he froze. It wasn't because he was sloppy, but because he was afraid. The intention intimidated him. When I did not attack with intention, his movement was fine. But the moment I became intimidating he became a target.

I think that being attacked with full intent in a controlled environment helps us to learn what this feeling is like and how to use it to our advantage rather than allowing it to prevent us from taking action. And I'm not talking godan test or anything. This is something I was being taught as a white belt and of which I am still a proponent.

Posted on: 2010/11/5 5:23
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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Quote:

dbkaruson wrote:
I think Ed's point is very closely linked to the last statement Kacem makes about not being blind, to the extent that it's really the same point.

I agree with Ed's point about severity of training and lining up what the practitioner is seeking with what the training provides. If you live a relatively low-risk lifestyle, you probably don't 'need' lethal top notch skills, unless you really desire them, in which case pursue them as such. Just don't delude yourself on any level.

I totally agree with Kacem that you have to be 1000% if you want to achieve top-notch combatives. His stating it with the wording the way he did - "...real martial arts are finally aimed only for an elite group of dedicated people..." - does come off as a bit abrasive/arrogant, which is a bit unfortunate. Stating that a large number won't make the decision to pursue it to a level he considered adequate/real etc etc would have been less so.

This thread perfectly illustrates what causes so much acrimony and hatred among the Bujinkan members worldwide : The wide differential of what each person wants/desires, what they are each willing to do to reach those goals and the (sometimes) caustically offered & often self-righteous opinions we hurl at each other about why 'our way is best/only proper etc'.

Regards,
...G.Carson


I don't think his comment was off at all. Koryu or Koryu derived martial arts or combat arts in general are/were designed and created for an elite groups of dedicated individuals. They are not created for a hobby.

A person's wants and desires has no baring on a martial art.
It does have a baring on what they will get out of it.



The Martial art doesn't adapt to the person either. The person adapts the art to themselves. It only works in one direction.

Posted on: 2010/11/5 7:33
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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Quote:
Koryu or Koryu derived martial arts or combat arts in general are/were designed and created for an elite groups of dedicated individuals. They are not created for a hobby.


I agree.
Wasnt it Hatsumi soke himself who once wrote (paraphrased),
"out of every 1000 practitioners, only 1 will be the real deal" ?


Posted on: 2010/11/5 12:32
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