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Re: Kacem's Interview
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Quote:

D_Cecc wrote:
Quote:
Koryu or Koryu derived martial arts or combat arts in general are/were designed and created for an elite groups of dedicated individuals. They are not created for a hobby.


I agree.
Wasnt it Hatsumi soke himself who once wrote (paraphrased),
"out of every 1000 practitioners, only 1 will be the real deal" ?



I think he was quoting someone else, but he has said one in a generation. I Heard the quote before, but I thought it was 1 in 10,000.

Posted on: 2010/11/5 13:50
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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RJHIII wrote:


I don't think his comment was off at all. Koryu or Koryu derived martial arts or combat arts in general are/were designed and created for an elite groups of dedicated individuals.


If I take this as fact, then isn't it brutally dishonest to teach anyone who doesn't fit this mold past the first few classes/months/years? If you believe this that concretely, then you must expel anyone who isn't elite as a waste of time or be guilty of contributing to the negative attributes of the organization by 'diluting' it's elite purity, or at least be guilty of taking advantage of us 'lesser people'. (Yes I realize this sounds a touch harsh, but hear me out)

I heard it said years ago by a certain judan that those few dedicated people are the important ones, and the rest are 'rent payers' or sheep that the higher ups in the Buj fleece to support the elite few (Shawn is no doubt very familiar with who I am speaking of)...... I had hoped that I would never hear anyone talk about things in that same tone again, but the elitist mentality seems to thrive none the less.

If anyone not of the 1% isn't worth their salt....then why allow us to remain? To fleece, to use as beat-toys, someone to look down upon & support your pedestals? Would you ethnically cleanse the Buj of non-elites if you had the authority? Kinda craps on the whole brotherhood, good will/spirit/heart thing I keep hearing a certain Soke talk about.....

Again I realize these are harsh ways of putting it yet I don't see how to avoid the conflict that elitist thinking creates.

Posted on: 2010/11/5 15:27
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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jibran wrote:
Carson, perhaps we should give Dr Zoughari the benefit of the doubt regarding the word 'real'. I can see how that would have a different connotation in French, which is his native language.


I have had the opportunity to train with Kacem and really enjoyed it, and gained a good deal of respect for his abilities by interacting directly in that manner. All I said was it came off a bit abbrasive/arrogant. Same could be said of some of his phrasing in his answers to things I talked to him about directly during breaks at the seminar.... Could be a language barrier, could be an ego thing. Unfortunate either way, which was my point.

Posted on: 2010/11/5 15:33
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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The higher the pinnacle you want the broader the base you need.

Soccer (football for the purists) is the most widely played, practiced and watched sport worldwide. From side streets, backyards, parks and grounds all over the world people are kicking the ball around at every level. Polo is an elite sports practiced by a privileged few. To enter you need a club and the connections to get in there, you also need a considerable monetary investment not to mention time. Which sport has the highest development of skills in the past 100 years at its top level?

Kobudo / Koryu Budo has never been for a (martial) elite few. For the past how many hundred years entry was based on region and family connection. In recent years it is still as elitist but the participants in Japan are the same sort of people who are involved in re-enactment societies in the west. By choking off entry and ease of participation and keeping the practice unpopular you are left with the sort of nerdy old guys practicing sub standard martial arts as can be seen all over Japan in various embu.

The most popular styles of judo and kendo in Japan have much much broader bases of participation so the development and skill at the highest level eclipses that of koryu styles.

The Bujinkan has developed a broad base and not much of it is at or trying to reach an elite level, but can anyone say that if a person has the talent, drive, passion and resources that they won’t be supported in pushing themselves above and beyond anyone who has gone before? How many of those that talk about choking the Bujinkan off to a few would be in it themselves if that was the case?

A lot of people around the world kick a football around, only a few make it to the world cup.

Posted on: 2010/11/5 16:15
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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Yes Greg,

I'm aware of whom you speak.

Kacem and I have had a number of conversations and one-on-one training experiences both on the dojo mats and in my home. My opinion is that his personal definitions of the terms "martial arts" and "practitioner" are different from those that most of us generally use when we talk about training, not to mention that of course his standards are very high because he compares himself to the best teachers that he knows and not to what the Bujinkan average is.

That being said, people come from all different walks of life and have different priorities and different reasons for training. There's no need to disparage or look down on another person's perspective on training as long as everyone has a mutual understanding of the scope of the discussion and the definitions used.

Sensei once told me that the beginning of Ninjutsu is to be able to put yourself in the other person's place and to be able to see and understand things from their perspective. Very, very wise words. I hope I can be half as good as Sensei is at that one day.

Shawn

Posted on: 2010/11/5 16:25
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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Quote:

dbkaruson wrote:

If anyone not of the 1% isn't worth their salt....then why allow us to remain?


I see this as anyone who chooses to follow the teaching - meaning adapting to the discipline, not the other way around - will be taught more and more.

Remember a very gifted trainee coming to me after basic course and asking "do I need to study all that is taught, or can I just take what I see I need?" and I had to reply "You should study all that is taught."

He did not come to training after that

So, maybe it's up to each individual to add to that percentage

Kinda reminded me of:

"Find the right path" by Shihan Sveneric Bogsater

Posted on: 2010/11/5 16:30
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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dbkaruson wrote:
If anyone not of the 1% isn't worth their salt....then why allow us to remain?


To find that one person that will receive the teachings the teacher needs to meet a lot of people. It's been this way in martial arts for a few hundred years now. Everyone participating on this board, training around the world and in Japan won't be that one, but we still get a hell of a lot of stuff out of training. At least I do.

Posted on: 2010/11/5 17:01
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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A clash of philosophies, that is what we see here. The "elitist" wants what they do to be very restricted just to "them" and "those like them". It is used to make them feel above and better then others rather then merely different. The ones that refuse this approach but feel that the art is a benefit to all who chose to pursue it differ in their philosophy. I accept that we are all connected and anything that can be done to benefit others benefits us as individuals too. My point of view is that this art provides benefit for anyone who will study it, no, not all will become that incredible "killing machine", but I don't think that should ever have been the goal. The best goal, in my opinion, is to improve your own life, to make you safer because of your skills. It is not to make comparisons with other practicioners.
We hear all the time that you will fight the way you train, but that is not a complete truth. You will fight based on the automatic, subconscious responses you have trained into you "muscle memory". I think all of us know that in that "real fight", real life and death situation, that there is no time to think. Your body uses what you've taught it and it that was good, you live. We have in our Art the potential to put those kinds of skill into muscle memory for anyone who is willing to train. So why this elitist attitude? I think that is a contradiction to what Dr Hatsumi has taught and continues to teach us. The principles of our Art can benefit the whole world society.

Posted on: 2010/11/5 22:15
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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Polar Bear,

I think "real" martial arts are geared towards an elite group.

But, in no way does that mean people can't train for personal development to raise themselves up or to reach their own potential.

Basically, it does kinda follow what Duncan said although I disagree a bit with his break down.

There is value and benefits in training for everyone, but it is made to create and mold the elite. It doesn't logically follow because it was created for an elite group that people can't or ought not train in it. Training should raise everyones level regardless of whether anyone should enter the group it was designed.

My personal goal is to one day enter that elite "group", but it will take several more decades to get there. It's about finding a path to achieve greatness in all things in life and reaching one's potential in life. Martial arts is just one piece of the puzzle, complete mastery over the body and mind is what is required of the elite group.

Everyone benefits regardless they ever enter that elite group hopefully they can at reach come closer to reaching thier potential.


Posted on: 2010/11/5 22:35
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Re: Kacem's Interview
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I believe the "elite" are the ones chosen by the master to keep the art alive to the next generation. And whom better to pass the art on!
Most of us are just average and below, and yes, we find something valuable in it, but we are not the ones that are to carry to torch on....

I feel many of the thoughts presented by the people on this forum, often reveal more of their own shortcomming or agenda, than it reflects the words of Mr. Zoughari. So readers of the forum, please keep an open mind and not project these ideas as the ideas of Mr. Zoughari.


Posted on: 2010/11/5 23:58
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