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Re: Bowing Ceremony?
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Quote:

RJHIII wrote:
Quote:

Damien wrote:
Now, I have yet to visit Japan, but I'm hoping to make my first venture in the upcoming year. Before I go, I plan on getting as much advise as possible from friends who frequest Japan. But from what I understand (and I may be wrong), the bowing ceremony is common practice in Japan. So despite personal feelings on the matter, it might be good to have it in a dojo for educational purposes.


I don't understand what you mean?

Bowing is a part of Japanese culture and life. It doesn't just happen in the dojo.


You know exactly what he means, the old Chicken Harajuku.....etc.

Posted on: 2010/11/16 6:43
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Re: Bowing Ceremony?
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mrdunsky wrote:
Perhaps I should have said "As far as I know" there are no rules stating you must have a shidoshi to do a bow.


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Papa-san wrote:
I've never heard of or seen any restrictions about the use of the bow in ceremony needing a shidoshi for it to be done.


But surely just because we’ve never seen a “rule” or “restriction” on something it doesn’t mean it’s probably ok or that we can come to a consensus on it on an internet forum. I would think it far more respectful to err on the side of caution. If you have never been told something is ok then it is better not to do it rather than go along with what you want to do until you are told to stop.

My advice to someone who is not a shidoshi, shidoshi-ho or obviously even a member who is running a training group based on their previous training would be careful not to use the Bujinkan name, issue any sort of membership or rank, the Bujinkan logo, etc. Also you need to find a teacher who will support your group and ultimately give you a dan rank and sponsor your shidoshi-ho.


Posted on: 2010/11/16 7:47
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Re: Bowing Ceremony?
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--But surely just because we’ve never seen a “rule” or “restriction” on something it doesn’t mean it’s probably ok or that we can come to a consensus on it on an internet forum. I would think it far more respectful to err on the side of caution. If you have never been told something is ok then it is better not to do it rather than go along with what you want to do until you are told to stop.--

That was exactly the reason I posted my questoin in the first place, to see if anyone had any hard and fast ideas. I think I will explain the ceremony to my group and show them what it looks like?? but not do it actually as a class. My group members know I'm not a teacher and this is just a training group for fun and learning.

--My advice to someone who is not a shidoshi, shidoshi-ho or obviously even a member who is running a training group based on their previous training would be careful not to use the Bujinkan name, issue any sort of membership or rank, the Bujinkan logo, etc. Also you need to find a teacher who will support your group and ultimately give you a dan rank and sponsor your shidoshi-ho.--

I'm working on that issue. Not really a great option that is also affordable. I'm doing what I can though. Thanks for all the great insight.

Posted on: 2010/11/16 11:52
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Re: Bowing Ceremony?
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Well it sounds like you are trying to do the right thing. Best of luck with your training group.

Posted on: 2010/11/16 12:10
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Re: Bowing Ceremony?
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I don't understand what you mean?

Bowing is a part of Japanese culture and life. It doesn't just happen in the dojo.



Really?

Posted on: 2010/11/17 2:42
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Re: Bowing Ceremony?
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I'm seeing that there might be some confusion as to what my question was. I don't see a problem with us bowing to each other, that is just tradition in Japan and we practice budo. I never say "sensei nirai" or anything like that because I'm not a sensei or a sempai or anything like that. We bow to each other as equals. What I was asking about was the bowing ceremony where we say "Shikan Haramitsu Daikonyo," clap twice, bow, clap once, bow. Is that appropriate to do with a training group, or should we wait until we have a Shidoshi willing to "sponsor" us (for lack of a better term) and I can eventually become a shidoshi-ho? Just a curiosity. Hope that clarifies things and ends the disharmony starting to occur.

Posted on: 2010/11/17 9:55
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Re: Bowing Ceremony?
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Lets belabor the point....

I will go as far as to say that you "Ought" (to reference another thread) to do the Bow In ceremony in order to prepare your group for training in other Dojos. It is also a usefull meditation tool that the Bujinkan does not have a copyright on.

You have to ask yourself if you will be offending someone by doing this, or will you be hurting anyone, or using powers you have not been granted yet. The answer to these questions is NO. I think that we as westerners have to be more aware of cultural differences and should likely be more carefull but sometimes you have to take your balls in your hand and go for it!

Marty

Posted on: 2010/11/17 13:53
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Re: Bowing Ceremony?
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I very much agree with Marty here, just go ahead and do it. The benefits for the group are worth it and it is not something that is limited to "rank".

Posted on: 2010/11/17 23:59
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Re: Bowing Ceremony?
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In my regular class, they are held at the Intel Corp fitness center, only open to Intel employees (I'm there by special permission). Because Intel hires people from all over the world (only myself and 2 others in class are US citizens...), I have to be sensitive to any cultural/religious differences. The bow-in ritual was discarded because Intel HR see it as a religious practice. We were also not allowed to have a kamidana of any kind for same reasons. So, instead of creating problems, I just don't do it. We do, however, bow to each other with the "Onegai shimas", as this is accepted as showing mutual respect to each other.

However, I do expect my ranked people to know how to perform this, as it is part of the Bujinkan 'culture'.

I urge you to learn about the various parts that make up this ritual. You should learn the significance behind the 2 claps, bow and 1 clap sequence. Know a basic idea of what the phrase means. Know who or what you are bowing to. There are lessons contained within each step that have life application, even without any of the Shinto/spiritual dogma. It will enrich your understanding of Japanese budo.

Posted on: 2010/11/18 0:45
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Re: Bowing Ceremony?
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Quote:

Zenigata wrote:
Quote:

mrdunsky wrote:
Perhaps I should have said "As far as I know" there are no rules stating you must have a shidoshi to do a bow.


Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
I've never heard of or seen any restrictions about the use of the bow in ceremony needing a shidoshi for it to be done.


But surely just because we’ve never seen a “rule” or “restriction” on something it doesn’t mean it’s probably ok or that we can come to a consensus on it on an internet forum. I would think it far more respectful to err on the side of caution. If you have never been told something is ok then it is better not to do it rather than go along with what you want to do until you are told to stop.

My advice to someone who is not a shidoshi, shidoshi-ho or obviously even a member who is running a training group based on their previous training would be careful not to use the Bujinkan name, issue any sort of membership or rank, the Bujinkan logo, etc. Also you need to find a teacher who will support your group and ultimately give you a dan rank and sponsor your shidoshi-ho.



I would be in agreement on this.
You "ought" not do things like doing the formal bow in if you haven't been instructed to do so by a teacher.

Posted on: 2010/11/18 1:24
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