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Re: Short image film about our dojo and our art
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Heh :)

I meant the physical assault and self defense part.. In my work I have to sometimes confront aggressive, large males and I'm just curious how women handle these kind of situations..

Posted on: 2011/9/15 4:53
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Re: Short image film about our dojo and our art
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A bit of spine and spirit can go a long way in many cases to deter an attack when it's in the early stages of victim selection.

We must remember that the imaginary, idealized 'fight' in the video never actually occurred. She stood and looked at him and he walked away. She didn't assume some exaggerated kamae, snarl, grimace or utter so much as a word. She simply faced him, and was able to do so courtesy of the 'spine and spirit' her training provided.

Fantasy? Of course, but to my eyes a very mild and in many cases believable one.

If she kicked his butt to the curb I would have a very different opinion of the video, but she didn't.

Criticizing her demonstrated skill as a martial artist is unnecessary, because her green belt clearly states that she is a beginner.

I also think it's very important that her aggressor was portrayed clearly as more of a creep or ex-boyfriend looking to invade her space (on a public street in broad daylight) than it was an outright thug in a dark alley looking to rape, stab or otherwise administer a serious beating.

I understand where you're coming from with what you're saying, but I don't think the details of the video support it. It all took place within a context, and context is important.

That's why I'm happy to praise it so highly. They thought very carefully about what they were presenting and covered their angles very nicely.

Posted on: 2011/9/15 5:04
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Re: Short image film about our dojo and our art
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Having had women as partners in high risk contacts with felons, I find that there are times when women can have certain advantages and disadvantages. Some of the best women I've worked with can read what works best based on the situation. One woman I knew could take a 240lbs, tattoo faced killer and have him doing whatever she needed just by the gift of gentle pursuasion. There seemed to not be the ego-clash, alpha-male challenge sort of thing going on. At the same time, when she had to use aggressive action, it was almost a surprise. You just didn't expect that from someone of her size and she had the skills to back it up. She just didn't *need* them as much, it seemed.

I've also worked with women who could pick up a man and throw him... :-O

It all just depends. But, from a self-protection standpoint, I am a huge advocate of 3 things:

First and foremost should be situational awareness. Accepting that YES she can be a victim is the first step. I find a surprising number of women (especially younger, college age ones) honestly think they won't be victims, or at least they think they can handle it. Yet, every year the statistics don't support that illusion.

Second, they need to yell and yell loud. Lots of noise draws attention. Attention is a huge deterrant. It won't always work, as I had a case back in the early 90's of a woman who got raped in her car right in a mall parking lot - during the day. But, I think that is a very rare (and sad) exception.

Lastly, is run. Don't duke it out with the attacker. Turn and run. Period.

Posted on: 2011/9/15 5:17
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Re: Short image film about our dojo and our art
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It reminds me of a lady who worked in the kitchen at the local prison. She had the inmates do the dishes for an ice cream :)

Posted on: 2011/9/15 6:00
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Re: Short image film about our dojo and our art
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Quote:

Shimajiro wrote:
A bit of spine and spirit can go a long way in many cases to deter an attack when it's in the early stages of victim selection.




A bit of “spine and spirit” can also go a long way in most cases to only escalate a violent situation; presuming the opposite has landed many people in intensive care or worse.

The “green belt" defense is a weak one for at least two reasons:

1). Anyone knows that effective tactics and movement can be learned from day one, unless of course the person instructing others in those tactics and movement is incompetent or unqualified to do so for some other reason.

2). Despite being promoted as such, the arts of the various ryu-ha disseminated within the Bujinkan organization were never intended to be utilized for modern self-defense situations. Although there are a myriad of reasons for practicing this movement, there has only ever been one purpose for the movement: to kill. Period. Promoting these arts as something that they are so obviously not is ultimately self-serving, and one of the more unfortunate byproducts of giving westerners lots of rank for getting their passport stamped at Narita.

That her assailant was depicted as anything other than the worst case scenario is not only irresponsible, it’s asinine. Why would any woman need to demonstrate effective technique or assertive behavior to a creepy ex-boyfriend behaving badly? Just call a cab or a cop and be done with it.

Yes, the very well produced video took place within a context. The context of the human imagination. Very slick. Reminds me of all those “Be all that you can be” commercials for the United States military. Those commercials wisely never depict what happens to the human body when it is impacted by things like large caliber rifle rounds or anti-personnel mines.


- Mark Spada

Posted on: 2011/9/15 6:10
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Re: Short image film about our dojo and our art
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Quote:

markspada wrote:
2). Despite being promoted as such, the arts of the various ryu-ha disseminated within the Bujinkan organization were never intended to be utilized for modern self-defense situations. Although there are a myriad of reasons for practicing this movement, there has only ever been one purpose for the movement: to kill. Period. Promoting these arts as something that they are so obviously not is ultimately self-serving, and one of the more unfortunate byproducts of giving westerners lots of rank for getting their passport stamped at Narita.


Hmmm... I don't know about this claim. Each ryuha was designed for a context specific to the historical conditions that existed. Kukishinden Ryu? Ok, that's a soldier's art, so defeating the enemy would naturally be the primary purpose. However, when you get into the other ryuha, it muddies somewhat. Togakure Ryu, for instance, has a vast amount of techniques designed simply for escape (Tonsougata, etc). Gyokko Ryu has a type of code that forbids killing ("take the opponent's power but spare his life" - paraphrased). Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu seems to be predominantly associated with capturing (albeit the assailant is very broken, but still capable of undergoing "information extraction").

And on and on. Maybe you have different knowledge?

If anything, I think the best defense for a girl in that situation is probably something more along the lines of tehodoki and run. But, that wouldn't be nearly as "awe inspiring" on video...

Posted on: 2011/9/15 6:35
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Re: Short image film about our dojo and our art
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Quote:
1). Anyone knows that effective tactics and movement can be learned from day one, unless of course the person instructing others in those tactics and movement is incompetent or unqualified to do so for some other reason.


You've made an assertion here and then posited that anyone who disagrees with it (or fails to fulfill it) is incompetent or unqualified. I think, respectfully, that the words 'very slick' might apply here, too!

Quote:
2). Despite being promoted as such, the arts of the various ryu-ha disseminated within the Bujinkan organization were never intended to be utilized for modern self-defense situations. Although there are a myriad of reasons for practicing this movement, there has only ever been one purpose for the movement: to kill. Period. Promoting these arts as something that they are so obviously not is ultimately self-serving, and one of the more unfortunate byproducts of giving westerners lots of rank for getting their passport stamped at Narita.


How does Hatsumi Soke promote the arts in his own books? I sense a great deal of feeling and compassion when I read translations of his writing. People study archery for reasons other than merely putting arrows into potential adversaries, why should Bujinkan training be any different? I believe that one can be very poor at martial arts and still get a great deal from training in Hatsumi's Bujinkan. I think the opposite can be true too.

Quote:
That her assailant was depicted as anything other than the worst case scenario is not only irresponsible, it’s asinine.


Most people, I'm fairly certain, never encounter anything close to the worst case scenario, ever in their lifetime. Lot's of people, otoh, encounter bullies, pushy and manipulative people and so on.

Quote:
Why would any woman need to demonstrate effective technique or assertive behavior to a creepy ex-boyfriend behaving badly? Just call a cab or a cop and be done with it.


Some folks lack the 'spine and spirit' to do even those simple things. They'll go blank inside and just stand there and take it, hoping it goes away.

My hat (for what it's worth) is well and truly off to those Bujinkan dojos who solicit and help to empower these sorts of students. They are a benefit to the communities they are a part of and a credit to the Bujinkan as a whole.

Posted on: 2011/9/15 8:34
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Re: Short image film about our dojo and our art
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this thread reminds me of this: generalizations are false, including this one.
LOL!

Quote:

markspada wrote:

1). Anyone knows that effective tactics and movement can be learned from day one, unless of course the person instructing others in those tactics and movement is incompetent or unqualified to do so for some other reason.


FALSE

i call BS on this statement. ANYONE KNOWS??!! you're kidding, right? my boss and my co-workers don't.

Quote:

Shimajiro wrote:

Most people, I'm fairly certain, never encounter anything close to the worst case scenario, ever in their lifetime. Lot's of people, otoh, encounter bullies, pushy and manipulative people and so on.


funny. MOST PEOPLE? where? in somalia it's usually always worst case.
in middle class america, not too much. but why do they (people in middle-class) buy insurance? why don't they vote NO to social security(which is a form of insurance)? who needs insurance: those who usually need it or those who might never need it?

Quote:

Shimajiro wrote:

Some folks lack the 'spine and spirit' to do even those simple things. They'll go blank inside and just stand there and take it, hoping it goes away.

My hat (for what it's worth) is well and truly off to those Bujinkan dojos who solicit and help to empower these sorts of students. They are a benefit to the communities they are a part of and a credit to the Bujinkan as a whole.


er.. which is too little? and which is too much?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicole_duFresne

not defining the line can mean life or death.

Posted on: 2011/9/15 14:44
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just playing the ONI's advocate!
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Re: Short image film about our dojo and our art
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Quote:

Lockfield wrote:

i call BS on this statement. ANYONE KNOWS??!! you're kidding, right? my boss and my co-workers don't.





No. As a matter of fact, I’m not kidding. The spin-around-real-quick-like-right-in-front-of-the-attacker is what’s BS here; judging by the way the girl and everyone else in her dojo were moving, she must have learned that garbage from her instructor.

There is a correct way to learn anything. And the correct way needs to be taught right from the very beginning. Anyone knows that about martial art or self-defense technique. Just as anyone knows that effective reading-comprehension and grammar skills can be learned from day one, provided that they are taught correctly.

Your boss and your co-workers don’t sound like they’re very bright.

Too bad for you, I guess.


- Mark Spada

Posted on: 2011/9/15 21:16
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Re: Short image film about our dojo and our art
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Quote:

Darren wrote:

Hmmm... I don't know about this claim. Each ryuha was designed for a context specific to the historical conditions that existed. Kukishinden Ryu? Ok, that's a soldier's art, so defeating the enemy would naturally be the primary purpose. However, when you get into the other ryuha, it muddies somewhat. Togakure Ryu, for instance, has a vast amount of techniques designed simply for escape (Tonsougata, etc). Gyokko Ryu has a type of code that forbids killing ("take the opponent's power but spare his life" - paraphrased). Takagi Yoshin Ryu Jutaijutsu seems to be predominantly associated with capturing (albeit the assailant is very broken, but still capable of undergoing "information extraction").

And on and on. Maybe you have different knowledge?





I’m making a clear distinction here between “reason” and “purpose”. Please forgive the presumption, but none of us practice this movement for the reason of killing, obviously....or at least I would hope not. But the purpose? If you are practicing ichimonji no kata correctly it should be very easy to see that the movement is for killing; not incapacitating or disabling or wounding or subduing.

Personally, I tend to avoid placing the Bujinkan ryu-ha under such intense scrutinization, mostly because I’m not the current soke or the guy who taught them to the current soke. But also because I run the risk of drawing erroneous conclusions based on fragmented knowledge. Remember the “theme of the year” back in 2003? Seemingly dozens of western “shihan” vied for pole position in the race to define the term juppo shessho for the rest of us unwashed masses. Virtually every single one of them epically failed in doing so.

Yes, I am aware as anyone of the various “codes” and admonitions that have been integrated into the densho of the various ryu-ha: “Don’t kill anyone”. “Don’t kill anyone unless you have no other choice”. “Look both ways before you cross the road”. “Do your chores and finish your homework before you go out to play”. “Never feed the Mogwai after midnight”....it’s all very sound advice for learning to live peacefully in a civilized society. But that doesn’t change the purpose of the movement itself.

I would be the first to argue that the arts practiced within the Bujinkan are perfectly suitable for learning modern self-protection, if that is a practitioner’s specific goal. But as that is not their true purpose, it takes both a competent instructor and a competent student to ensure that this particular application of the movement is viewed through the prism of reality.


- Mark Spada

Posted on: 2011/9/15 21:57
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