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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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Oh wait, nevermind, i never said it was a trusted source in my original post. Anyway, he is just a good friend who happens to be into martial arts history.

Posted on: 2012/9/27 14:15
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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If you want to research, then you'd question your sources and name them. Everybody can tell you that he heard - but on which grounds?

Unless your friend was a witness back then, he must have got his information somewhere. I think as researcher, you should first search out those sources and name them, if you want others to discuss/evaluate them.

You are right that there are no forbidden questions, but it is a lack of respect to carry gossip around the world without a proper survey. Moreover, it's not clarifying at all, since it produces responses of what people think, not what they know.

One fact is, that Hatsumi ownes extensive documentation hand-written by Takamatsu, which are not part of the historical transmission - letters, notebooks, drawings and so on - but contain technical explenations in great detail. So if you think that Takamatsu favoured somebody else, one can safely assume, that this someone else has similar material. Where is it?

Posted on: 2012/10/4 19:16
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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Quote:
If you want to research, then you'd question your sources and name them.

Quote:
You are right that there are no forbidden questions, but it is a lack of respect to carry gossip around the world without a proper survey.

Just a simple google search on the Bujinkan will bring forth plenty of references regarding this issue. In particular a variety of martial arts forums but also the Bujinkan Wickepedia briefly mentions some of the "controversy". It is also my understanding that the official Ninjutsu Museum in Japan(http://iganinja.jp/en/faq/index.html#147) does not recognize Hatsumi's sokeship because of lack of documentation. Not to say that all of these sources are credible, but when you speak of "survey" they are the first come to mind.

I am questioning my sources. This is why I am looking for insight here and researching it on my own offline. People judge from first impressions, and many people turn away from the Bujinkan who could perhaps contribute to it greatly because of the amount of naysay that already exists in the subject. With the Bujinkan entering a new era, I think it is high time we start realizing that perception matters and is not disrespectful to address and hope to improve.

Posted on: 2013/1/13 4:32
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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Dear Yamabushi,
I understand our concerns and I also salute your desire to 'dig deeper' into the arts. To start with, you would do well to study japanese as you may understand that the subject you wish to study demands good knowledge in reading japanes as well as speaking it so you can interview those who are in the know. Most fail to go deep simply because of the language barrier.
Even with good japanese skills its not that easy to verify things. You need to know where to search and who to approach. For a start, you can check the Bugei Ryu-Ha Daijiten, a japanese book with information about different Ryu-Ha. Hatsumi sensei is mentioned as successor to Takamatsu for many of the different linages, such as Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Togakure Ryu, Gikan Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, and so on.

Good luck in your research and let me know if I can help you with something!

/ Skuggvarg

Posted on: 2013/1/14 18:41
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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Maybe I am tired, but it occurs to me that you are missing the point. You are talking about a high school popularity contest and the question is really what did you learn in high school.

Less "research", more training.

Marty

Posted on: 2013/1/16 16:25
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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Here is my two cents. Is the Bujinkan a good martial art? Yes. Are there really good instructors to learn from? Yes. So, why the concern with the history so much? Much of ninjutsu was passed down orally, so it stands to reason that when the history was finally written down there would be some errors. Hatsumi is the legitimate heir to the other Takamatsu schools and they aren't in question. The whole calling into question the validity of the togakure ryu really only became a big deal after Anthony Cummins went to Japan and asked Hatsumi if he could train there for free. Hatsumi said he could not train for free, but could watch (I wasn't there when this happened, but enough people have verified this happening that I accept it as legitimate). So, Anthony Cummins has this big stick up his butt with Hatsumi and decides to call into question the lineage of Togakure Ryu because he has a Phd in History, people started to listen to him, but his arguments are very skewed in my opinion and not relevant. I could be wrong about this, but it is what I saw happening to cause this. Either way, who cares about the history. It's a great martial art to train in and has world recognition and Hatsumi has accommodations from governments' militaries and intelligence agencies. Isn't that enough validation for you or anyone else. Or did you really need to feel like you were part of an ancient ninja family so you could vicariously live the ninja way?

Posted on: 2013/1/17 4:07
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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Quote:

YoruKage wrote:
...did you really need to feel like you were part of an ancient ninja family so you could vicariously live the ninja way?


Well said Sir, this appears to be the case for 99% of BJK, GBK, JEK students I've met.

Posted on: 2013/1/24 22:47
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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It's certainly the case for me. I enjoy the feeling of participating in something that has some real 'pedigree' to it, and I'm quite certain that Hatsumi Soke's ninpo has all the pedigree and legitimacy anyone could hope for.

Will it ever be spelled out clearly enough to please casual onlookers and martial arts historians (serious, qualified and otherwise)? Probably not. Doesn't mean it's not there.

To me, a big part of ninpo is being comfortable with ambiguity. I don't need all the answers spelled out for me in order to feel that there are answers and indeed some very good ones. Could this impart an aspect of fantasy or 'LARPer' to me as a Bujinkan member? Absolutely! Do I spend too much time in dream land? Guilty as charged.

If I just wanted pure self defense, I'd probably study sambo or krav maga and buy, learn to use and carry a gun.

That's not what interests me. What interests me is Hatsumi Soke's ninpo, budo what-have-you. The whole package. There's plenty of mystery and ambiguity there (for most of us anyways) and I wouldn't have it any other way. Happy to just be a part of it, even if I never even master the basics.

Posted on: 2013/1/25 6:36
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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I had some of these same concerns a couple of years ago and then one day they were gone and here is why. I felt that there were 2 questions; Was Takamatsu what he claimed to be and the other was Hatsumi is heir and a few things solved this for me. One is that Takamatsu's reputation was well documented and that he was very well respected in the martial arts community and the soke of several well documented ryu so really had no need to make a bunch of things up. The second question was answered for me when I saw a documentary of Hatsumi talking about Takamatsu. I remember seeing in this video the look on Hatsumi's face and the way he talked being something more than reverential and more like the way I talk about and remember my grandfather. The emotion communicated through that video was enough to tell me that my concerns were a waste of energy. I realize that my reasons won't make any difference to a serious historian but they are good enough for me.

As a historian this is what I would look for: does the densho make sense and contain methods that would be considered appropriate for the period? How do the Japanese themselves treat Hatsumi and how do they regard the Bujinkan? since I haven't had the pleasure of visiting Japan I can't answer the second question. It is my belief that the Bujinkan passes both these tests.

Posted on: 2013/1/26 0:20
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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I have first traveled to train with Dr Hatsumi in Japan in January 1988 and with few exception have gone yearly since that time, the last years usually twice a year. I have also been to all (except one) US tai Kai since 1988 and many of the European ones in that time. I've come to know Sensei and appreciate him quite a lot. I do find it a bit funny that people still try to deny his legitimacy. He has the documentation of his relationship with Takamatsu-sama and I and many others have seen this. That, however, is not even the issue, it is his demonstratable skills that are his credentials! He doesn't just "talk", he can back it up and those of us who HAVE felt his hands KNOW this with no doubts! There will ALWAYS be people who have their own agendas and ALWAYS be people who attempt to belittle what they can't do or understand. Make sure for yourself that YOU don't fall into the trap of accepting the word of an "expert" who really isn't an expert. If you do it is you that will experience the disaster. An "expert" is only determined by the quality of what they do, not the words they say.

Posted on: 2013/1/26 23:39
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