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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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Quote:

Shimajiro wrote:
If I just wanted pure self defense, I'd probably study sambo or krav maga and buy, learn to use and carry a gun.


Also very well said! Too bad there are a lot of instructors out there who don't realize that their rank does not equal their actual combative ability, but actually fool their students and themselves into believing so!

"If you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just take a deep breath, and say this to yourself... 'Baa.'" ~ LTC (Ret) Dave Grossman (On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs)

Not the case in Japan of course, but all 50 states now issue concealed carry permits to law abiding citizens.

Posted on: 2013/1/30 17:34
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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I don't carry a weapon myself. For me it would be more of a liability than an asset!

Quote:
Too bad there are a lot of instructors out there who don't realize that their rank does not equal their actual combative ability, but actually fool their students and themselves into believing so!


Phil Legare's group made an excellent video of one of the Daikomyosai's a few years back which contains some extra footage showing some of Hatsumi Soke's artwork. The picture that has always stuck out clearly in my mind is that of a frog, jumping and trying to grasp a leaf. Hatsumi Soke's explanation, as I understood it at the time, was that this is what we are all doing in our training, jumping, over and over and over again in an attempt to get the leaf. To me the leaf represents the 'magic' we all see in Hatsumi Soke's budo movement that lends him the ability to control himself and others in difficult situations to a degree and with a natural ease that, to most of us, might just as well be magical.

We may say, "Well that's fine, but so-and-so is jumping in the wrong direction and now his students will too!"

My answer to that is just that's it's all part of the training and a part of life. I think that anyone who has any exposure to Hatsumi Soke's training, however indirect, has a chance to grab that leaf and, if nothing else, the right to enjoy the attempt.

“Yeah, but they might get mugged and die trying to do something stupid that they learned from their instructor.” Yes. Or they might freeze, do nothing and die anyways. Or they might cooperate, do everything the mugger says and...die anyways.

I can think of worse fates than an obituary that says, “He died fighting. Stupidly, but fighting nonetheless.”

; )

Cheers,

-Kent

Posted on: 2013/1/30 23:56
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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(Is it just me, or is there some bad CSS or something happening here thats cutting off the end of each line?

I think it may have something to do with the 'quote' tags. Other posts without quotes look fine.)

Posted on: 2013/1/31 4:19
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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I have the same issue as Shimajiro, all over the forum.
This thread has been quite an interesting read.
And yes, it's the CSS for the quote function. It's about 50px too wide.

Posted on: 2013/1/31 11:07
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
I have first traveled to train with Dr Hatsumi in Japan in January 1988 and with few exception have gone yearly since that time, the last years usually twice a year. I have also been to all (except one) US tai Kai since 1988 and many of the European ones in that time. I've come to know Sensei and appreciate him quite a lot. I do find it a bit funny that people still try to deny his legitimacy. He has the documentation of his relationship with Takamatsu-sama and I and many others have seen this. That, however, is not even the issue, it is his demonstratable skills that are his credentials! He doesn't just "talk", he can back it up and those of us who HAVE felt his hands KNOW this with no doubts! There will ALWAYS be people who have their own agendas and ALWAYS be people who attempt to belittle what they can't do or understand. Make sure for yourself that YOU don't fall into the trap of accepting the word of an "expert" who really isn't an expert. If you do it is you that will experience the disaster. An "expert" is only determined by the quality of what they do, not the words they say.


Demonstratable skills and legitimacy are not the same thing. If Hatsumi sensei is the legitimate heir to a legitimate lineage then he will have the documents and such to prove it. For those of us who follow the teachings of Hatsumi sensei we have to have a little faith that the claims he makes are true (if that kind of thing is important to us. For many it isn't). We aren't in a position to evaluate his claims as most of us aren't knowledgeable enough. Mr. Martin's statement of falling into a trap by accepting the words of an expert could be applied to Hatsumi sensei as well.

(Post script: Please don't read this as an attempt on my part to belittle or cast doubt on Hatsumi sensei and his legitimacy. I firmly believe the words Hatsumi when it comes to these issues. I just wanted to point out the irony in this post)

Posted on: 2013/1/31 17:05
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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Papa-san mentions in his post that Hatsumi Soke has the documentation as well as the aura of legitimacy that comes with truly awe-inspiring martial talent, so I personally don't see his post as ironic. I think he simply chose to emphasize the talent aspect, which seals the deal for him (and me).






Posted on: 2013/2/1 2:03
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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Quote:

Shimajiro wrote:
Papa-san mentions in his post that Hatsumi Soke has the documentation as well as the aura of legitimacy that comes with truly awe-inspiring martial talent, so I personally don't see his post as ironic. I think he simply chose to emphasize the talent aspect, which seals the deal for him (and me).


As far as I know, Mr. Martin is in no way qualified enough to be able to determine if Hatsumi sensei's documentation prove his legitimacy. He instead has to trust the words of an expert (Hatsumi) which is what Mr. Martin said we should be careful about doing.

Posted on: 2013/2/1 7:52
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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Ed never said we shouldn't trust experts.

He said we shouldn't trust "experts" who aren't really experts.

There is a very big difference, to me at least, between Hatsumi Soke's immense legacy of training, teaching, writings, demonstrations and interviews from the 1960's to the present, and the frowning concern on the faces of various "experts" worried that Hatsumi Soke's legacy might somehow be not legit.

If I honestly believe someone is truly an expert in their field, I listen and listen carefully. I don't think Ed is saying anything different in his post. Hatsumi Soke is clearly (to most of us) the expert, and is the one Ed (and I and many others) listen to for all things ninjutsu.








Posted on: 2013/2/2 2:12
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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So what do guns have to do with Soke's history? I'll tell you. If you follow the Gun control debate in the US there is a great nashing and gnawing of the teeth, with outrageous threats and breast beating. Lots of stories of people saying what they want without any clear way to make a difference. With over 300 million guns in the US not much will change.
Same with discussing Japanese spy history written down. What we believe is true is completely a matter of choice. It is understood that the written history is deliberately lacking.

The discussion causes hard feelings on some parts. Mostly makes people shake their heads how gullible or ignorant the other side is. In the end it is what you choose to believe is true.

Lets have a discussion about religion and abortion. That might be less insulting to Soke.

Marty

Posted on: 2013/2/2 10:01
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Re: Takamatsu's successor
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It's certainly the case for me. I enjoy the feeling of participating in something that has some real 'pedigree' to it, and I'm quite certain that Hatsumi Soke's ninpo has all the pedigree and legitimacy anyone could hope for.

Will it ever be spelled out clearly enough to please casual onlookers and martial arts historians (serious, qualified and otherwise)? Probably not. Doesn't mean it's not there.

To me, a big part of ninpo is being comfortable with ambiguity. I don't need all the answers spelled out for me in order to feel that there are answers and indeed some very good ones. Could this impart an aspect of fantasy or 'LARPer' to me as a Bujinkan member? Absolutely! Do I spend too much time in dream land? Guilty as charged.

If I just wanted pure self defense, I'd probably study sambo or krav maga and buy, learn to use and carry a gun.

That's not what interests me. What interests me is Hatsumi Soke's ninpo, budo what-have-you. The whole package. There's plenty of mystery and ambiguity there (for most of us anyways) and I wouldn't have it any other way. Happy to just be a part of it, even if I never even master the basics.


I agree entirely Shimajiro. I understand that there will always be ambiguity, and that is part of what makes it beautiful. I am just trying to dig deeper in as many ways I can. I see validity and learning in discussion on its own merit, and really appreciate everyone's responses. I think this art goes deeper than just physical motion, and that training comes in many forms. I really do appreciate the discussion, as not all of us can afford a flight to Japan at this point, and the words of Shihan and other Bujinkan students on these boards help provide us with that link in addition to training and learning in Japan and elsewhere.

Posted on: 2013/2/2 11:37
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