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Re: Instrictor attitudes on students training with other instructors.
Just Passing Through
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My sensei has never been anything but encouraging to going to any instructor in any martial art. It has allowed me to be exposed to a great many different points of view. However my instructor would recommend certain seminars to go to more firmly than others. He has also recommended going to schools of all sorts and using what they teach as part of your toolbox.

Of the seminars most pushed by my instructor that I have been to are Mark O'Brien, Phil Legare, Larry Hamilton, Papa-San, Bart Uguccioni, and Brian VanCise, Jennifer Kaiser and Chuck Gauss seminars.

I haven't regretted a single one.

I would like to thank Otto Cardew for his recommendations.

To speak to Yamazu and Fnord325: Not that I have the answer but my instructor has always said that Martial Arts are like a car. They go from Point A to Point B. However almost all people have a different view as to what "Point A" and "Point B" are. Most of those people also take different cars from one location to another so maybe Instructor A represents Car A and each student needs to find their own car?

That was rather esoteric for me so I think I will leave this post where it is.

Posted on: 2013/8/27 19:27
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Re: Instrictor attitudes on students training with other instructors.
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Thanks, ruinarion.

The car metaphor is a good one, and yes,
we all drive the way / where we want,
in the end. Sometimes it might be good
to choose which route to take to the...
place, and not all hitchikers should be
allowed to travel with you...

A travel guide sure is usefull in cases
of uncertainty.

:D

Posted on: 2013/8/27 20:17
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Ari Julku
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Re: Instrictor attitudes on students training with other instructors.
Kutaki Postmaster
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Quote:

Yamazu wrote:
Ah, ok, valid point!

Though... How can anyone certify oneself to be a "good" teacher... A good teacher to one might be a bad teacher to another, right?

All we can do is our best, try to follow the path shown by our own teachers, and help those willing to tag along.

Could this be turned around, too; should we teach anyone who comes asking?


All valid points and questions. I am better at teaching certain things than others.

At the same time, there are some stupendously awful teachers out there, and almost all of them advertise in the Yellow Pages. :)

We definitely should not teach just anyone that comes asking.

Posted on: 2013/8/28 12:34
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Glenn R. Manry -

What? Yes...that's how I do that....why...why do you ask?
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Re: Instrictor attitudes on students training with other instructors.
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It is true Glenn that all we can do is our best. It is also true that at the start each student doesn't have the experience to tell one from the other. There are certain flags as mentioned. Like " if you only train with me I'll give you ---" Or if you train with anyone else you can no longer train with me, or people are being injured by that instructor or training is so rough that you are being hurt. Look for the flags and do vote with your feet.

Posted on: 2013/9/4 5:44
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Re: Instrictor attitudes on students training with other instructors.
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I have never had a teacher tell me who I couldn't train with. However, it is also important to "read the air" when it comes to which people are more valuable to train with in the larger picture. All teachers can bring new insights and lessons, but can also detract and confuse - especially when one teacher contradicts the other.

A litmus test for whether a teacher is "good" can be as easy as how many layers they have between them and Soke - and how often they train with their teacher. But, that is also tricky as there are as many variations to people's interpretation and transmission as there are teachers. Everybody has their own personalization in what and how they teach. Yet, under it all *should* be a common core in their kihon - you can see this in the Japanese Shihan. If not, then (IMO) there is a problem and something detracting from what qualifies as "good". It takes time for a student to see this and they will see it if they are exposed to it enough, especially by those closest to Soke.

A "good" teacher, again, my opinion, is someone who will have this commonality to their own teacher. Those who don't follow their teacher enough will develop away from it. So, if you want to train with someone outside of your immediate teacher, try training with your teacher's teacher and see for yourself. Just my suggestion, of course, but it's good to see how your own teacher is developing by experiencing what they experience in their teacher.

I call it 'swimming upstream' instead of jumping streams.

I hope this makes sense and certainly there's different ideas on this. As Duncan Stewart Shihan mentioned recently while here, we are all on our own shugyo. We need to discover for ourselves.

Posted on: 2013/9/10 8:11
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Darren Dumas

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Re: Instrictor attitudes on students training with other instructors.
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Posted on: 2013/9/10 13:10
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Ari Julku
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Re: Instrictor attitudes on students training with other instructors.
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I, unfortunately, have dealt with this issue as to two instructors from whom I have received training.
I believe the first was very well-meaning, in that he sought to "shield" his group from what he thought were the "unnecessary" and improper portions of the bujinkan. But I also think that his attitude was quite self-sure in that, rather than allow his students to see for themselves what was unnecessary or improper, he decided that for them and offered veiled punishment for those who sought to question that decision. As a result, many of his students missed out on a lot of key points.
The second instructor was someone who just truly believed that he ,himself, had been enlightened to the point where he had all of the answers and everyone needed to come to train with him and nearly all other training was a waste of time.
I think it is significant to note that instructors were ex-bujinkan members, and not current members of the organization - hence they received no further instruction themselves.
I feel sorry for anyone who feels that they are under the yoke of their particular instructor and my advice (stemming from personal experience) is to remove one's self quickly from such a situation, rather than run the risk of getting stuck in one's training and wasting years worth of time.
Training outside of one's group (with proper insight, assurance, and feedback) should be encouraged by instructors. In my opinion, a single instructor should never assume that he or she knows enough to provide for every facet of his or her students' training better than anyone else.
We should look upon one another as a community, training with each other, learning from each other, and supporting each other, rather than competing with and looking down on one another.

Posted on: 2013/9/25 5:29
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Re: Instrictor attitudes on students training with other instructors.
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So... should we encourage our students to train
with teachers who try to stop their students from training with anyone else?



Posted on: 2013/9/25 16:16
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Ari Julku
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Re: Instrictor attitudes on students training with other instructors.
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Quote:

Yamazu wrote:
So... should we encourage our students to train
with teachers who try to stop their students from training with anyone else?




Short answer for me is NO.

With that said, I would want to know WHY said teacher is demanding that students don't train elsewhere. In some cases, it could be understandable, especially in the case of a teacher forbidding a student to train with another teacher who may be a problem (cult behavior, drunken/unethical behavior, personal or legal problem between teachers exists, etc). Although, a student who chooses to train with an unethical teacher like that or with a teacher who obviously has some personal or legal problems is displaying more about their own character and I would consider that in whether or not I'd want them as a student in the first place. It could affect our continued teacher/student relationship.

There are many levels to this outside of just black and white rules.

Here's another factor to consider from a teacher standpoint - if a student from another teacher came to you for training, and you knew their teacher was one who forbid training with other teachers, would you allow them in your class?

Posted on: 2013/9/26 1:15
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Darren Dumas

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Re: Instrictor attitudes on students training with other instructors.
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Quote:

Darren wrote:

There are many levels to this outside of
just black and white rules.

Here's another factor to consider from a
teacher standpoint - if a student from
another teacher came to you for training,
and you knew their teacher was one who
forbid training with other teachers,
would you allow them in your class?


Good points, we'd need data to be able to
make a justifiable decision.

As for letting a student in... good
question! If we allow him to train and the
"blocking" teacher finds out about this it
might be even worse for the trainee, having
gone behind the teachers back

When it comes to visiting another Dōjō I'd
say the proper way would be to ask one's own
teacher if it is ok to visit the other teacher,
and then contact the target teacher asking
permission to come and train.

But, if the first teacher is of the blocking
kind... and the trainee knows this... will he
even be considering visiting other teachers as
he knows there's trouble ahead?

And if he is aware of this ruling, and decides
to go along with it, sticking to "just this one
source" ideology... that speaks about his own
point of view, too, doesn't it?

Also, what happens when one asks the first time,
and is told not to go to some teacher...?
Will there be given a reason for it? Is it a
valid one? Is it true?



Yes, there are many points in this. And it
starts with us teachers, right?

But, who are we to say someone shouldn't train
with someone, aren't people allowed to make up
their own decisions about their own lives?

Maybe, if we know some real negative facts,
something that is maybe morally a no go...
Are we prepared to share these?

We have been given guidelines from the Honbu
on how to behave, what kind of people should
not be allowed to be apart of this organization
and these we should try to uphold and enforce
the best we can.

And thus we should be leading with example, right?

Posted on: 2013/9/26 4:25
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Ari Julku
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