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New student requesting some information.
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Hi. I am a new student of the Bujinkan dojo in my City..

I came from a background in mma and boxing.(one heck of a switch lol)

Today was my second class and I am enjoying it.

I have some questions that Im hoping you can help me understand.

There seem to be 2 ichimonji no kamae postures. I asked about that and Sensei said that one is the classic way and the other is the way Hiorshi Nagase Sensei preferred it. (he is referenced by sensei as being more Combative)

The first, seams to be the classic way. With the weight to the rear and the rear foot pointing away at a angle.(to provide a escape route) Seams more defensive.

The one that is used the most in my dojo is the weighted forward, and the rear foot is pointing forward at a angle. IT was described as more aggressive.

I was hoping you could help me understand why there are 2 different Ichimonji kamae.

Part of understanding this is understanding Hiroshi Nagase Shihan. He was described, very briefly as being more combative. I have not yet found any other information on him online. I would like to know as much about him as I can. What previous training does he have, what about his past experience makes him more combative?

Why did he feel the need to change the classic ichimonji? Are there any advantages or disadvantages between the two?

Thank you for taking time to read my post and I look forward to any replys.

Posted on: 2013/12/15 5:58
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Re: New student requesting some information.
Villager
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For some reason it wont post my signature with my name..

Posted on: 2013/12/15 6:01
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Joshua Worman

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Re: New student requesting some information.
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Stop thinking of ichimonji as a set posture but rather as on teaching you a principle of "how to get out of the way". Looked at this way there are quite a few example of ichimonji. The principle remains the same but the "picture" may be vastly different.

Posted on: 2013/12/15 6:33
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Ed Martin aka Papa-san
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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I will try to keep what you posted in my mind. You must remember I am coming from MMA and our striking is simple. I have never had to put this much thought into how I stand and move.

So does anyone have any information regarding Nagase Sensei?

Posted on: 2013/12/15 9:44
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Joshua Worman

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Re: New student requesting some information.
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One can also be a transition to the other. Take that 'aggressive' version and then lift your rear leg to let gravity pull you back (out of the way of a punch perhaps) to the 'classic' weigh. With most of the weight now on your rear leg, that front leg is free to retract, reposition, kick, go into hicho or whatever. Moments in time, one flowing into the other.

Posted on: 2013/12/15 10:27
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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IF there was a thanks button, id use it.

Ill have to try transitioning from one to the other in my home practice.

Posted on: 2013/12/15 11:54
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Joshua Worman

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Re: New student requesting some information.
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That will be excellent practice for you. It is usual for students to think these things are fixed, but they are, as already said, just snapshots in time.

Posted on: 2013/12/15 21:53
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Ed Martin aka Papa-san
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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Quote:

I came from a background in mma and boxing.(one heck of a switch lol)


I did boxing before I started practicing ninjutsu, so I know how you feel :)

I hope you don't mind me answering very directly to your questions and reflections. As with everything you read on an internet forum regarding classical japanese martial arts, take it with a pinch of salt :)

Quote:

There seem to be 2 ichimonji no kamae postures.


Bujinkan is an organization that has it's base in nine different ryu ("schools"). Each ryu has its own version of Ichimonji no kata - both the name, use and appearance might vary.

The most common ones are from Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu – perhaps the two most important ryu of the nine. In Gyokko Ryu (Ichimonji no Kamae) the beginning kamae form is with both feet on the same line, body in profile, forward foot pointing forward, rear foot point in a diagonal to the rear side, forward arm extended with a slight angle to the side, rear hand closed in a boshi ken on your elbow joint, body weight is completely on the rear leg to allow kicking with the front leg and moving into Hicho no Kamae without adjusting the body balance. In Koto Ryu (Seigan no Kamae), it's pretty much the same only the body is even more in profile, forward arm completely extended and rear hand open at the shoulder.

As you progress in practice in these ryu you'll learn to have the weight on the front leg instead, in the middle, etc. etc. As has been pointed out above, the kamae are not meant to be static. But the above is the basic "first level" where you start the practice.

Quote:
I asked about that and Sensei said that one is the classic way and the other is the way Hiorshi Nagase Sensei preferred it. (he is referenced by sensei as being more Combative)


Is your teacher a direct student of Nagase sensei? (i.e. does Nagase sensei consider him his student?) It is possible and probable that Nagase sensei has a much more complex understanding and view of Ichimonji no kata.

Quote:
The first, seams to be the classic way. With the weight to the rear and the rear foot pointing away at a angle.(to provide a escape route) Seams more defensive.

The one that is used the most in my dojo is the weighted forward, and the rear foot is pointing forward at a angle. IT was described as more aggressive.


Probably this is the way your teacher wishes to express his views on fighting and adapts ichimonji no kata to fit that. I do recommend you to ask him further about the differences in kamae between the different ryu and see his response.

Quote:

Part of understanding this is understanding Hiroshi Nagase Shihan. He was described, very briefly as being more combative. I have not yet found any other information on him online. I would like to know as much about him as I can. What previous training does he have, what about his past experience makes him more combative?


The nine ryu were all born and evolved in war, killing, blood and fighting for several centuries. I don't think you can get more "combative" than that :)

Quote:

Why did he feel the need to change the classic ichimonji? Are there any advantages or disadvantages between the two?


I have not personally trained with Nagase sensei, but my guess is that his view on ichimonji is much deeper than what your teacher presents. Perhaps your teacher just didn't want to confuse you too much, or perhaps he himself has a limited understanding due to the many barriers that exist when practicing a martial art that comes from Japan :) Like I said above, ask him to show and explain more about some basic differences between the ryu. Hopefully he should be able to help you further :)

Posted on: 2013/12/16 2:25
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Re: New student requesting some information.
Villager
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I shall ask him about the differences between the ryu. I was talking about this question on Martial talk and Mr Chris parker felt that the way ichimonji was being taught, as I described it, was not inline with gyokko ryus ideals.

Im wondering if maybe, as you say, he has a deeper understanding of Ichimonji and that is how he chose to express it.

My sensei studied under Jay Zimmerman, and continues to get regular training.


Posted on: 2013/12/16 6:29
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Joshua Worman

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Re: New student requesting some information.
Villager
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Just to clarify. Here is a video showing how they are currently teaching it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t193dbXmqlo

Here is a pic of the way they say it used to be taught.https://www.google.com/search?q=ichimo ... 0Q9QEwAQ&biw=1366&bih=605

Posted on: 2013/12/16 8:33
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Joshua Worman

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