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Re: New student requesting some information.
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"I will agree that it is a good Idea to find one teacher to direct and guide your training, especially early on. There comes a time however when you need to have your eyes opened to the fact that there are very many ways to do things right."

I love how you create a rationalization based solely on a contrary impulse. You have absolutely no proof that this “learn from everybody”/”fifty shades of gray” philosophy actual produces anything other than mediocre results. On the contrary, there are plenty of examples in the Bujinkan organization that only prove how ineffectual it is. You say that there are many ways to do things right. Sure. Okay. By that logic, there are just as many ways to do things wrong. As I said, virtually no successful apprenticeship or educational model adheres to your “learn from everybody” philosophy.

"Anyone who has spent significant time listening to Soke will know there are very many shades of grey in training."

Anyone who has spent significant time listening to Hatsumi-sensei will know that Hatsumi-sensei says a lot of things to a lot of people a lot of the time. He enjoys talking to people. That’s it. Unless you have a personal relationship with Hatsumi-sensei, and you don’t, you have to take anything that he says with a grain of salt from a position of complete neutrality. So invoking Hatsumi-sensei does not help your argument in the least.

"Certain teachers agree with your philosophy of only one way to do things. Manaka sensei and Tanamura both have built arts based on this."

Mr. Manaka and Mr. Tanemura have not built arts based on only doing things one way. They created organizations based on what they learned from Hatsumi-sensei and other teachers. They both received menkyo that attests to their capacity and skill. Whether or not you agree with what they are doing has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

Arguably the most demonstrable example of the ridiculousness of the “learn from everybody” philosophy is the anointing of the term “shihan” to people who aren’t Japanese and have no personal relationship with Hatsumi-sensei, not to mention awarding teaching certificates to people who are barely out of high school. So when someone who is just starting out in their training hears that they have a choice between going to Japan and learning from a true shihan who has been Hatsumi-sensei’s personal student since the sixties, or going to a Buyu Camp or Tai Kai and learning from a dozen different people who have no personal relationship with Hatsumi-sensei….which choice do you honestly think they are going to make? Why go all the way to Japan and spend all that money when it’s easier to stay in the United States and skip around to different open-mic parties? It’s one the many justifiable reasons that the Bujinkan organization is considered a laughingstock among serious practitioners of other arts. But it’s also the American way: babies teaching babies. The pushing-a-stroller-at-Wal Mart philosophy.

"Taikai's have been a great way of showing the diversity of training. (Those who are good and those who suck)."

How exactly is KFrame supposed to discern “those who are good” from “those who suck” at a Tai Kai? Are you going to point them out? You see, if he attends the class of a Japanese shihan, one of Hatsumi-sensei’s students, then he doesn’t have to worry about that. Because he knows there is something to back up what he is looking at. You know….kind of like pursuing a Ph.D course taught by someone with an actual Ph.D. Your approach would have everyone pursuing a Ph.D couse taught by someone who was still in junior high school. And not just one person, mind you. Dozens of people. Imagine an academic institution where dozens of teachers instruct daily on the exact same subject, all of whom have different levels of education, all of whom have absolutely no verifiable accreditation, all of whom have different teaching methodologies, all of whom have had very limited exposure to the information that they are teaching to the students. I used the word “imagine” because it doesn’t exist in the real world.

"Splinter factions often cling to dogma as a method of showing how they are different from everyone else - therefore a "pure source" or the only "right way". This is called being a zealot."

It takes an appalling lack of perspective to equate single-mindedness and dedication to zealotry. It’s weak. And it smacks of agenda and bitterness. It's a shame that so many people in the Bujinkan are behind you on this. Because you could have so much more.

"In art, the best is the standard. You cannot be graded on a curve. When you hear a new violinist, you do not compare him to the kid next door; you compare him to Stern and Heifetz. If he falls short, you will not blame him for it, but you will know precisely what he falls short of. And if he is a real violinist, he knows it as well. In art, 'good enough' is never good enough."

- Ursula K. Le Guin

Posted on: 2013/12/18 2:16
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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SHIKIN HARAMITSU DAIKOMYO

You make very many assumptions. You prove many of my points with your arguments. You do not know me or my relationship with Soke. Once again you are wrong but you will never see the possibility that this is so. Turn down the contrast in your world and add some of the shades of grey.

But don't take my word for it, look at all of the "Documentary" evidence for the variation in styles of movement in the Shihan. Look at Oguri Sensei's movment and compare it to Nagato, Noguchi, and see the definite differences but also what they do in common.

I love how people argue that because things are done differently in the Bujinkan that it is the "laughing stock" of the martial arts world. If it really matters to you what other martial artists think about our art you may choose to do a different art. Maybe you should ask yourself why you train? Once again there are very many different reasons why people train and what they seek to get out of the art. In your training journey it changes a lot. Very often what we seek is not what we get and that makes the journey that much more exciting.

Marty

Posted on: 2013/12/18 3:33
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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“You make very many assumptions.”

No. I never made any assumptions. I made assertions and backed them up with facts and sound reasoning.


“You prove many of my points with your arguments.”

How so? Please back up what you say by providing examples. If you can’t or don’t want to, that’s fine. Just say so.


“You do not know me or my relationship with Soke.”

I don’t need to know you. You don’t have a personal relationship with Hatsumi-sensei. Allow me to qualify that: you are not a personal student of this man and you’re not Japanese. I’m sure you and Hatsumi-sensei get along just fine. But you are only one out of hundreds of people in and out of his dojo every year. In other words, the relationship you have with Hatsumi-sensei is roughly the equivalent of the relationship I have with my dentist.


“Once again you are wrong but you will never see the possibility that this is so. Turn down the contrast in your world and add some of the shades of grey.”

How am I wrong exactly? Again, you have to substantiate your assertions in some way. Your defensive posturing reminds me of religious zealots ( see what I did there? ) who tell me I’m wrong when I refuse to accept their belief system as fact. And as for the whole “shades of gray” thing: you keep clinging to this bizarre accusation the way a drowning man clings to a floatation device. I never claimed that I couldn’t accept shades of gray in my world. You did. Taking a straight line approach to any educational endeavor isn’t black and white thinking. It’s efficient thinking. It’s smart thinking. But I guess that it's done differently in your world.


“But don't take my word for it.”

Don’t worry. I don’t.


“Look at all of the "Documentary" evidence for the variation in styles of movement in the Shihan. Look at Oguri Sensei's movment and compare it to Nagato, Noguchi, and see the definite differences but also what they do in common.”

I have made such comparisons. But ultimately you can only have one model to follow. You know, like a model airplane? If you try to put together a model airplane based on six different pictures with six different sets of instructions, how do think that’s going to turn out for you?


“I love how people argue that because things are done differently in the Bujinkan that it is the "laughing stock" of the martial arts world.”

Maybe you wouldn’t love that argument half as much as you do if you accepted the fact that things are not done differently in the Bujinkan. Things are done wrong in the Bujinkan. When a teenager is given license to teach a martial art, specifically a martial art that claims battlefield provenance and openly incorporates weaponry, who isn’t required to have any appreciable skill in that martial art, I don’t care how many shades of gray you attempt to throw at it. That’s a big steaming bowl of wrong.


“If it really matters to you what other martial artists think about our art you may choose to do a different art.”

It doesn’t matter to me what other martial artists think about our art. Thank you for the advice, though.


“Maybe you should ask yourself why you train?”

I don’t need to do that. I know why I train. Maybe you should ask yourself why you’re so defensive about someone challenging your opinions and belief system.


“Once again there are very many different reasons why people train and what they seek to get out of the art. In your training journey it changes a lot. Very often what we seek is not what we get and that makes the journey that much more exciting.”

Sounds like hokum to me. If I seek out authentic representation of a venerable Japanese lineage and all I get is a bunch of Midwesterners at a ho down, “excited” would not be the word I’d use to describe my reaction.

Posted on: 2013/12/18 8:06
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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Enjoy your confidence. My youngest son has similar confidence. I hope for your sake that you take a peak out of such a closed mind once in a while.

Marty

Posted on: 2013/12/18 8:46
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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Mr dunsky, I know my opinion is of little value, but being a laughing stock is not something any martial artist wants. I want to be taken seriously as a martial artist. Its hard to be taken seriously if your part of the very small group of practitioners that are not larping, but training hard.


Posted on: 2013/12/18 8:48
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Joshua Worman

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Re: New student requesting some information.
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Kuma9 you said "Maybe you wouldn’t love that argument half as much as you do if you accepted the fact that things are not done differently in the Bujinkan. Things are done wrong in the Bujinkan. When a teenager is given license to teach a martial art, specifically a martial art that claims battlefield provenance and openly incorporates weaponry, who isn’t required to have any appreciable skill in that martial art, I don’t care how many shades of gray you attempt to throw at it. That’s a big steaming bowl of wrong. "

That sentiment, that I have continually ran into during my research, that gave me much concern before I joined. I almost didn't join, but I saw something good. There is potential in this art, but it seams there is many junk instructors. It is a waste of years, if you learn from a junk instructor.

I don't think I have a junk instructor, though being a former mma, makes it hard to accept that I don't need hard contact sparring to learn a martial art like this one.


Posted on: 2013/12/18 8:54
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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"Its hard to be taken seriously if your part of the very small group of practitioners that are not larping, but training hard. "

Did that come out the way you meant it? Training hard is the only way to be taken seriously. There are a lot of people out in the world with a lot of opinions. Trust the opinions of people you know and respect. When you are a beginner, you feel like a beginner. Soke said after 40 years of training that he was starting to understand what his teacher meant. We have time.

Marty

Posted on: 2013/12/18 9:08
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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I typed it as I meant it. I don't want to be a laughing stock. You can train hard all you want, that does not change the face of the art if every other person in it is a larper.

I like what im doing, but I have had to hide what im doing from my friends. All of whom are martial artists, as they do indeed see the bujinkan as a Joke. They then point to videos of various bujinkan guys getting tooled in fights. Such as What happened on Human Weapon. You would expect a Mega Don 15th to tool Jason Chambers in every aspect, yet the moment it went unarmed the megadon got tooled.

Its that crap that gets thrown out at the very mention of the Bujinkan.

I like this art, I intend to fully explore it. That does not mean I have to like, the piss poor reputation that it has due to bad practices of most of its members.

Posted on: 2013/12/18 9:44
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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Kframe,

In my opinion, part of pursuing the truth is learning to filter out the distractions that seek to break our concentration.

If you want to study Bujinkan, then you need to find a path within it that appeals to you and follow it, doggedly.

Online discussions are fun, but are mostly just entertainment and noise, no matter how smart and experienced some of the participants are. Kutaki sits idle for months at a time because, quite simply, aside from occasional announcements, factual questions or jokes (or furniture spam ;), there's really not much else of use that can be said!

Ed gave you some great advice and I think that's as good as it's going to get.

Best of luck and happy training to you!



Posted on: 2013/12/18 13:23
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Re: New student requesting some information.
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Quote:


mrdunsky wrote:

I hope for your sake that you take a peak out of such a closed mind once in a while.




“Merely having an open mind is nothing. The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid. ”

- G.K. Chesterton

Posted on: 2013/12/18 15:12
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