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Shouldn' t we say "Shut up and train!" ??
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Quote:

jsimmons wrote:
Quote:
Sorry if I sounded "rude" (it often happens due to my English ability), but I'm just strict to those who won't listen to someone they should listen to. I behave in this manner at Hombu/Ayase, too. It doesn't matter if they are beginners or not.


Instead of saying "I don't like it that you smoke because I'm concerned about your health," many people will often say "You should stop smoking." While the person using the second approach may have genuine concern it is communicated in a manner that someone might find presumptuous.

Who exactly should we listen too? Was it your intention for the poster to read and accept the two pieces of advice that followed his question? In this case, the advisers may be considered more experienced. Should their replies be given more weight because they are more experienced?

The poster asked a question. The first reply instructed him to train hard and study with a good teacher. The second reply mirrored the first with a little more detail and the closing remark "Shut up and train." I think that the poster read these replies and understood them. Despite this, the conclusion that he came to was different that what some forum members expected. The poster felt that he had been dismissed.

Now, I don't think anyone intended to communicate dismissal to the poster, but by suggesting that he "Shut up and train," dismissal was nonetheless communicated. While advising someone to train hard and study with a good teacher is indeed excellent advice, it does not answer the poster's question in a manner that is empathetic. It is possible that the Kutaki no Mura community is unable to answer his question in a manner that satisfies him, but there are ways of communicating uncertainty, doubt, ignorance, and complexity that does not lead to dismissal.

Quote:
I don't think so. We told him to "shut up and train" because we thought him to be a beginner, didn't we?

If you think we don't, why don't you suggest everybody input their Budo career in their profiles? I'm sure it'll help us understand one another much more. The fact is, I have seen many beginners talk like pros.


Telling someone to shut up and train stifles discussion and critical thinking, which is very important at the beginning stages of any endeavor.

I think it is important for a beginner to look at the information that is being presented to them rather than the person providing the information. If I ask a specific question of someone in a work environment and I receive a reply along the lines of “Shut up and work,” I am far less likely to ask that person a question again, regardless of their position or level of expertise.

Based on the poster's question, I don't think that he's going to reach a satisfying answer from training alone because there is a great deal of interpretation and theory involved. The sad thing about this whole situation is that after the initial conflict actual discussion unfolded that probably would have benefited him. I hope he’s still reading.

I’ve been told to stop asking questions by many people and I have persisted in my inquiry with very favorable results. I have also been told to shut up and train a handful of times, though thankfully not by my teacher. Luckily, many more Bujinkan practitioners have been helpful rather than not, and some of the answers that I received had a significant impact on me as a person as well a practitioner.

Could I have come to answers on my own? Probably, but they would have been my answers.


Thank you for the comments. I'd like to read some other people's opinions, too.

Posted on: 2005/9/7 11:21
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Re: Shouldn' t we say "Shut up and train!" ??
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This is a Japanese Budo so I think the way it is passed on is important.

Because I speak Japanese well enough to be able to communicate with Hatsumi-sensei and other Shihan I am often asked to interpret when someone asks advice or questions after training. From my experience the answer would nearly always be considered "dismissive" to most people.

I follow the lead of Hatsumi-sensei when running my own dojo. When a new person starts I don't give them much help or advice at all. I'm not rude to them but just leave them alone and observe - once they have proved themselves and start to get somewhere then I will start to help them. Why waste my time on people when most of them can't stick it out anyway? I prefer to spend my time dealing with people who are getting somewhere.

If someone asked me a question like that in my class the answer would be the same. If you want to understand Sanshin no Kata then train in the basic forms, then study henka of these forms. Shut up and train is a perfectly reasonable response in my opinion. Don't talk about it, do it. If you don't know how to do it then find out.

If you're so insulted by being told to train then leave.

Ask Hatsumi-sensei and five of the top Shihan the original question regarding Sanshin no kata and I would put money on you being told politely to "just train and it will be clear", "Don't worry about things like this yet" or you might even get shown how to do Sanshin no kata.

Posted on: 2005/9/7 12:06
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Re: Shouldn' t we say "Shut up and train!" ??
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I usually find that the answer "shut up and train" is good advice. Everytime I ask a question it can be solved with that answer. I do think that it is dismissive, and rightfully so.

If the question is purely factual, about the history of one of the schools or the name of a technique, then that obviously does not apply. If the question is about movement, then you can only get two proper answers.
1-Another demonstration (best if you attack them).
2-Trying it yourself and feeling for resistance.

I have learned that the only question I should be asking is where the first resistance is felt. I am the only one that can answer that. "Shut up and train" gets me to that conclusion.

If I ever have enough information to ask a proper question, then that means that somewhere deep down I have the answer. Does this make sense?

Posted on: 2005/9/7 12:44
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Re: Shouldn' t we say "Shut up and train!" ??
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I have also heard "don't worry about the flowers, worry about the roots" this to me means the same thing (imho)and to a beginer may not sound so harsh.

David Killick

Posted on: 2005/9/7 12:54
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Re: Shouldn' t we say "Shut up and train!" ??
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Hi.

My lunch break would be so boring if everyone did just that... and trained!

IMHO, I still think that a beginner section would be easier to manage than having to scroll through often repeated and banal questions, observations, etc. The management could be as simple of cutting and pasting qualifying posts into a 'new player folder'.

Thanks.


Posted on: 2005/9/7 13:23
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Re: Shouldn' t we say "Shut up and train!" ??
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Quote:

I usually find that the answer "shut up and train" is good advice. Everytime I ask a question it can be solved with that answer. I do think that it is dismissive, and rightfully so.

I think "Shut up and Train!" is more like the answer to a koan and this thread is way over analyzing it. (I'm not picking on you shinoobie - your post was just the one I responded to)
Quote:

If I ever have enough information to ask a proper question, then that means that somewhere deep down I have the answer. Does this make sense?

I think so. I also think that even when you don't have enough information to ask a proper question, somewhere deep down inside, you (me, they, anyone) have the answer, we just need to train more so we can see it.

Posted on: 2005/9/7 13:25
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Re: Shouldn' t we say "Shut up and train!" ??
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I have done my best to present my thoughts on this issue, so I will sit back for now and see what comes from this discussion.

Posted on: 2005/9/7 14:33
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Re: Shouldn' t we say "Shut up and train!" ??
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Quote:

DuncanM wrote:

If you're so insulted by being told to train then leave.

Ask Hatsumi-sensei and five of the top Shihan the original question regarding Sanshin no kata and I would put money on you being told politely to "just train and it will be clear", "Don't worry about things like this yet" or you might even get shown how to do Sanshin no kata.


I am not insulted by being told to train, I am insulted by being told to `shut up and train`, especially by someone who is not my teacher.
Follow your own advice and respond to such a comment with "just train and it will be clear", or, "Don't worry about things like this yet". Instead I get a judgemental comment like "Since you are asking about something as basic as [Sanshin No Kata], I assume you aren't training under a Shidoshi?"

It seems you 'follow' Soke's lead in the way you teach your class, but you fail to follow his way of speaking to students! This is the point

Posted on: 2005/9/7 15:24
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Re: Shouldn' t we say "Shut up and train!" ??
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Quote:

sweet_lude wrote:
It seems you 'follow' Soke's lead in the way you teach your class, but you fail to follow his way of speaking to students! This is the point


I have a question.
Does your teacher agree with you on this?

Posted on: 2005/9/7 15:40
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Re: Shouldn' t we say "Shut up and train!" ??
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Quote:

sweet_lude wrote:
I am not insulted by being told to train, I am insulted by being told to `shut up and train`, especially by someone who is not my teacher.
Follow your own advice and respond to such a comment with "just train and it will be clear", or, "Don't worry about things like this yet". Instead I get a judgemental comment like "Since you are asking about something as basic as [Sanshin No Kata], I assume you aren't training under a Shidoshi?"


I made the assumption that you were training yourself rather than training with a good Shidoshi based on your question (which seemed to fail to understand what Sanshin no kata is) plus a quick read I did of your other posts? It is an assumption that I made because the answer is different depending on who I am talking to. So who are you then? Who is your teacher? What is your rank? How long have you been training for? Which dojo do you attend?

If my assumption is correct then I consider my advice to be correct. Just learn the basic forms well.

Posted on: 2005/9/7 16:00
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