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Ishitani-sensei a menkyo holder in Togakure Ryu?
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Hello again,

I have been accused in the past of being too concerned about history of budo. However, I must say I find these things really fascinating. Maybe I should have born as Indiana Jones

I have recently been told that it appears Ishitani-sensei (the person who taught Takamatsu-sensei Kukishin Ryu) also had a menkyo kaiden in Togakure Ryu.

Apparently this information appears in the recent BRDJ.

Could I ask if anyone can verify this?

Is it accepted that Takamatsu learned Togakure Ryu from Ishitani (as well as/instead of from Toda)?

IMO, this would be an extremely interesting and valuable discovery if it were true.

The person who informed me of this has asked not to be named, so please understand if I do not give any sources. It's not that I am deliberately trying to be vague.

Thanks very much

Alec Courtney

Posted on: 2005/12/16 0:48
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Re: Ishitani-sensei a menkyo holder in Togakure Ryu?
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not sure if he has one for togakure ryu but he did know some form(s). Takamatsu-sensei learned it at 13, 4 years before he met Ishitani-sensei.
When O'Sensei Takamatsu was 17 years old, an old man by the name of Ishitani Matsutaro Takekage came to the match factory owned by Takamatsu's father. Ishitani was famous all over Japan for his martial arts. He was using an old oak bokken for a walking stick. Takamatsu's father gave Ishitani a job as security guard, and Ishitani was also given a small area of the factory to use as a Dojo. Takamatsu leapt at the chance to study under the old man. From him he learned the "Kuki Happo Biken no Jutsu". Ishitani also trained in various aspects of Ninjutsu and taught young Takamatsu aspects from several other schools of which he was also Soke. These were Hon Tai Takagi Yoshin Ryu (from which Takamatsu was already studying with Mizuta), Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu, and Shinden Muso Ryu.

On one occasion the sleeping area for the match factory workers caught on fire. As everyone ran around screaming, Takamatsu was observed to be smoking a cigar, watching the fire. He then got one of the thick gi training jackets, soaked it in water and put the jacket on. He grabbed a hanbo (3ft stick) and running into the burning area, started to knock down the sliding walls with the hanbo. The collapsing walls helped extinguish the flames, saving the rest of the factory. Ishitani is reputed to have watched Takamatsu as he ran about knocking down the walls and commented that he was truly a great martial artist. Ishitani died a few years later, just moments after passing the scrolls on to O'Sensei Takamatsu. It is said that he died with his head in O'Sensei Takamatsu's lap.

Posted on: 2005/12/16 16:30
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Re: Ishitani-sensei a menkyo holder in Togakure Ryu?
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Quote:
seryph wrote:
not sure if he has one for togakure ryu but he did know some form(s).


If I recall correctly... isn't there Ninjutsu section in Kukishin-ryû as well?

Also, looking at the history written about the birth of Kukishin-ryû, it is said that the young Samurai who went to get the emperor from the castle, dressed as a lady (Hensôjutsu), was a Ninja (seen it even mentioned he was from Togakure-ryû). There was something about this in "Sanmyaku", as well as in the "Advanced Stick fighting", but I don't have them available right now, so cannot be exact....

Posted on: 2005/12/16 16:54
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Re: Ishitani-sensei a menkyo holder in Togakure Ryu?
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Quote:
If I recall correctly... isn't there Ninjutsu section in Kukishin-ryû as well?


You are correct here. Some of my notes mention the Kukishin Ryu containing special ways of hiding under water using bamboo tubes, which actually is not as straight forward as one might suppose.

The Ryu.if I remember correctly also contains ways of hiding using earth, fire, wood and metal.

I have actually discussed this on other forums which has led to flame wars, but in fear of atrating another one I will say that Kukishin Ryu is actually listed as a Ninjutsu school by various sources.

Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk

Posted on: 2005/12/16 18:59
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Re: Ishitani-sensei a menkyo holder in Togakure Ryu?
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It was not Togakure ryu, but Ishitani Matsutaro taught the other ninjutsu to Takamatsu sensei.

Posted on: 2005/12/16 22:10
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Re: Ishitani-sensei a menkyo holder in Togakure Ryu?
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harada-san, will you please elaborate on that?

what other ninjutsu? other ryu..?

Posted on: 2005/12/17 9:26
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Re: Ishitani-sensei a menkyo holder in Togakure Ryu?
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"not sure if he has one for togakure ryu but he did know some form(s). Takamatsu-sensei learned it at 13, 4 years before he met Ishitani-sensei.
When O'Sensei Takamatsu was 17 years old, an old man by the name of Ishitani Matsutaro Takekage came to the match factory owned by Takamatsu's father. Ishitani was famous all over Japan for his martial arts. He was using an old oak bokken for a walking stick. Takamatsu's father gave Ishitani a job as security guard, and Ishitani was also given a small area of the factory to use as a Dojo. Takamatsu leapt at the chance to study under the old man. From him he learned the "Kuki Happo Biken no Jutsu". Ishitani also trained in various aspects of Ninjutsu and taught young Takamatsu aspects from several other schools of which he was also Soke."


So let me see if I understand correctly:

Takamatsu learned Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu early in life from one of the last remaining people (Toda), who had this knowledge of ninjutsu. Takamatsu then later met a man (Ishitani), who was totally unrelated to Toda, but also knew some form of ninjutsu, separate from what Takamatsu already knew. Correct, or no?

If this is the case, then it is an amazing coincidence that one person could happen to meet the only 2 sources of ninjutsu left, and learn from them both. What are the odds? Can anybody clarify this?



James Hawk

Posted on: 2006/1/6 7:06
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Re: Ishitani-sensei a menkyo holder in Togakure Ryu?
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Adam & James,

It would be great if you could provide literary references for the material that you quoted about Takamatsu Sensei... "Essence of Ninjutsu" perhaps?

Shawn

Posted on: 2006/1/6 8:09
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Re: Ishitani-sensei a menkyo holder in Togakure Ryu?
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Quote:

kouryuu wrote:
Adam & James,

It would be great if you could provide literary references for the material that you quoted about Takamatsu Sensei... "Essence of Ninjutsu" perhaps?

Shawn





I just wanted to state that I, for one, am not quoting any information other than what has been previously stated on this thread about Takamatsu Sensei. Also, I am not making any claims to know any information on this issue other than what may be being stated here. I am just trying to understand what is being said here.

Yes, I have read "Essence of Ninjutsu" and that is what came to mind when I read about the match factory in Adam's post.

Please understand...I am NOT making any claims. This was in reference Adam's statements, not mine.

Thanks,

James

Posted on: 2006/1/6 9:35
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Re: Ishitani-sensei a menkyo holder in Togakure Ryu?
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Quote:
Leonardo wrote:
Takamatsu learned Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu early in life from one of the last remaining people (Toda), who had this knowledge of ninjutsu. Takamatsu then later met a man (Ishitani), who was totally unrelated to Toda, but also knew some form of ninjutsu, separate from what Takamatsu already knew. Correct, or no?


I do not know if Ishitani and Toda had relation. But, Takamatsu sensei mentioned that he had been taught different schooll which related to ninjutsu from Ishitani.

Quote:
Leonardo wrote:
If this is the case, then it is an amazing coincidence that one person could happen to meet the only 2 sources of ninjutsu left, and learn from them both. What are the odds? Can anybody clarify this?


In my opinion, I don't think only two schools remain in those days, so that I do not feel it is an amazing coincidence.

"...the truth but not the whole truth..." Byron


I won't put any information about this article on the internet anymore.

Posted on: 2006/1/6 23:19
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