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Body Conditioning
Permanent Village Fixture
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I've heard that conditioning one's fingers can detriment your eyesight.

Does anyone have any information concerning this?

Firsthand or secondhand would be best.

Posted on: 2006/7/17 0:26
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......Samuel Zavaletta

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Re: Body Conditioning
Permanent Village Fixture
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I've read and heard that the type of conditioning you are referring to can damage the heart as well. Since someone may come along with an explanation that invokes "chi/ki", I'll present an alternative to the "alternative".

Traumatic damage to peripheral vasculature may result in any/all of the following:

Subsequent inflammation and necrosis followed by the release of wound related cytokines and cellular debris into vascular space.

Impairment to peripheral circulation (supply and return)
that may raise systemic pressure.

Posted on: 2006/7/17 1:30
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Re: Body Conditioning
Permanent Village Fixture
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I'm wondering, is this type of situation created with all kinds of body hardening, or simply with excessive conditioning? What is excessive conditioning?

I've heard fig juice can be used to toughen the hands. Does anyone know about this as well?

Posted on: 2006/7/17 20:42
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Re: Body Conditioning
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For people to do the "conditioning" as in the iron shirt or iron palm training, there is a lot of knowlege required on the proper medicines to use during this training to prevent injuries. To do this training without those medicines or the knowlege of when and how to use them is to put yourself at great risk!!! It is my opinion that one should always work to have a healthy body, one in good physical condition for whatever your stage in life may be. However, to try to condition yourself to "rip the bark off of trees" with your fingers, or any other type of extreme conditioning, do give some thought as to the WHY you are doing that. Is the world YOU live in one that such conditioning will enhance your survival? If so go ahead, although through most of the world that is not now true. A healthy body is an important asset, an ego gratification if that is what it is, is not must of a survial asset. Do the things that you can to change to a healthy life style. Do you smoke? Stop!! Do you live on junk food? Pay more attention to what you eat! Do you burn the candle at both ends? Do you live a risky live style? Improve those FIRST! Are you a substance abuser? Stop abusing! The most effective asset you can have is to not look like a martial artist, to blend in with the crowd. To have whatever you do to come as a complete surprise to your attacker. Give some thought to these things before going into the extreme conditioning process. But hey, that is just my opinion.
Ed Martin aka Papa-san

Posted on: 2006/7/17 22:09
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Re: Body Conditioning
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At the finger tips, one has what in acupuncture is called the "jing (well)" points which is where qi/ki accumulates. Normally one uses these points to "drain" excess. If one continues to stimulate these points incorrectly than one can weaken/scatter the qi/ki and blood of the body, which is vital to the function to the heart, among other organs.

According to chinese medicine the heart rules the blood, the liver stores the blood and the spleen produces qi & blood. The heart manifests in the complexion, liver in the eyes and spleen in the flesh/muscles. If one has weakness in qi or blood than these can be affected.

Many of the Chinese Kung Fu styles have a method to strengthening and conditioning the hands/fingers without detrement to the joints and "vital substances" of the body.

I hope this helps to explain how eastern medicine explains the body's processes and you can somewhat deduce what is best for the body.

Please feel free to ask any related questions.

Posted on: 2006/7/18 1:21
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Re: Body Conditioning
Permanent Village Fixture
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Perhaps a good question is whether or not anyone, who has had experience with conditioning, knows of a correct book on the subject, or perhaps a correct instructor? Washington D.C. area possibly?

The extent of my knowledge from the Bujinkan side has been:

1. Wrap straw around a tree and hit it
2. Drive fingers into sand
3. Something about using fig juice to toughen the hands(if anyone knows anything about this it would be great)

Like people are mentioning, health is of paramount importance to good taijutsu. Mental, physical, and spiritual health. I am interested in a slow, steady, healthy progression.

I need correct, legitimate information.


Posted on: 2006/7/18 11:55
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......Samuel Zavaletta

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Re: Body Conditioning
Active Kutakian
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this is what i was told as part of my koto ryu training...
although there are many parts of the body used in koto ryu, the hands are the main weapons and have to trained separately. grip practices (hand grips, weight training for gripping strength, hanging from branches or pull up bars and finger tip push ups are all training methods that help hand strength. for striking, the accepted technique is to hit straw. however, individuals have progressed to hitting a bag of rocks, trees or boulders. generally speaking, conditioning exercises to strengthen the nails are not recommended however one exercise is to hammer nails into planks of wood and then grab the nail heads with the finger nails and pull the plank nails out. as one's nails become more conditioned, the plank nails are hammered deeper into the wood. while this exercise does little for the appearance of the finger nails, it will turn them into weapons. other specialized strikes such as the koppo ken require very careful training because the thumb is easily damaged....

Posted on: 2006/7/18 12:28
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adam harris
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Re: Body Conditioning
Village Old Timer
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Quote:

noname wrote:
I've heard that conditioning one's fingers can detriment your eyesight.

Does anyone have any information concerning this?


Unless you are conditioning your fingers in your eye, you cannot damage your eyesight by conditioning the fingers. Papa-san makes a better point. Why in this day and age do you want to "condition" your fingers? I think that vigerous conditioning might effect your hindsight, "Why did I do that!"

Marty

PS. Takamatsu Sensei did finger conditioning, he wore eyeglasses later!

Posted on: 2006/7/18 15:48
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Re: Body Conditioning
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I just hit the gym on everyday i'm not martialing some arts.

Posted on: 2006/7/18 18:25
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Re: Body Conditioning
Villager
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As Papasan said, you need a good reason for what you want to do. If you do have a good reason then here are some pointers.

To qualify, I studied Ironfist style kungfu for several years and have done several different forms of body conditioning. I no longer engage in these practices because I no longer need that level of conditioning. The only lasting impact I have noticed from it is that my shins are somewhat more pain resistant than is usual and the knuckles on my hands are slightly enlarged, not so much as to be noticable, with a toughend patch of skin over the largest knuckle.

Anyway, if you are interested in training the fingers there are several ways to do it depending on the fingers being used. In general, if you are using the four main fingers and not the thumb, you would condition in more of a raking motion similar to a shakoken using a shallow pan full of varied materials depending of your level of conditoning. The thumb can be directly struck into a substance like a fist.

If this is something that you really want to pursue find a qualified practicioner and be prepared to invest several years into learning this specialty.

Just remember that Takamatsu sensei told Hatsumi sensei that this form of conditioning was not neccessary in these times. Hence why soke doesn't, to my knowledge, teach these methods to any great extent.

Good Luck,
Jim D.

Posted on: 2006/7/19 9:21
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