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Can Budo gain any advantages from "sport"?
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James you made the comment that we do Budo, and I agree we do. My question is that doing Budo, can we learn nothing from the sport practicioners' experience?
Since the human body is and always will be the human body, and since if you stress it in any activity as sports do, don't you think we can learn from their experience?
I agree that what we do is not sport, it never will be and have affirmed this view-point many times. We are however very active with our bodies, any one who really wants to maintain health must be. Conditioning is a very good thing as long as we don't try to push our bodies past their limits, or brutalize them in any way. No, I don't know what each person's limit is but I do know mine. You need to find your own. The "sport" experience I mentioned in the thread "ring age" is very real and depending on the severity of the blows can occur rather quickly. This I think each person must be aware of and make their own decision on.

Posted on: 2008/6/11 21:57
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Ed Martin aka Papa-san
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Re: Can Budo gain any advantages from "sport"?
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Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
James you made the comment that we do Budo, and I agree we do. My question is that doing Budo, can we learn nothing from the sport practicioners' experience?


I agree that we can learn a lot from sport practitioners. Seems to me that we have learned the politics part of it already, and the bad manners from the football fans too



Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
I agree that what we do is not sport, it never will be and have affirmed this view-point many times.


Yes, what we practice is not sport, but is Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu really that different?

- We say we do not have rules, yet we confine ourselves within rules for our safety. To me that is very "sport" like, but i agree that is necessary.
- As for the mental attitude it is true, we do not practice to "win" a match or tournament, but we practice to win to preserve our lives and the lives of our loved ones, or to eliminate danger.


Let me finish with a question:
Are we practicing BUDO or BUJUTSU?

wikipedia:budo
Quote:
from wikipedia
Civilian vs. Military

Many consider budō a more civilian form of martial arts, as an interpretation or evolution of the older bujutsu, which they categorize as a more militaristic style or strategy. According to this distinction, the modern civilian art de-emphasizes practicality and effectiveness in favor of personal development from a fitness or spiritual perspective.

Posted on: 2008/6/11 23:47
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Re: Can Budo gain any advantages from "sport"?
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First let me say that any definition that begins with "many consider..." should be viewed with scrutiny. Hell, any definition from Wikipedia should be viewed with scrutiny - it is all user submitted input.

Budo is the art. Bujutsu is the brush strokes, the techniques. Budo supercedes bujutsu because it is the "big picture". It isn't a "de-emphasized practicality". That's simply internet BS, in my opinion.

Sports are a competitive role, where the goal and methods for achieving that goal are specifically laid out. Tag, score point. Pin, tap point. Cross goal line, point. Illegal move, penalty.

In budo, the goal and techniques for achieving that goal are not so specifically laid out. The conditions are uncontrolled, chaotic and virtually limitless. The methods are limitless. There are no points. You either survive or don't (unless your attacker only wants to hurt you, not kill you - but do you want to take that chance?). There is no competition - they want to hurt you, you just want to be safe (or keep others safe).

In sports, you walk out of the ring - you've lost (forfeit). In budo, you walk out of the combat zone and you win (escape). In sports, you have to defeat your opponent within the confines of specific rules. In budo, there are no rules - only morality (which your attacker(s) may not have much of).

Yes, both budo and sports have "rules" in a sense. But, they are very different from each other. Violating a rule in sports can get you penalized (or ejected). In budo, violating a "rule" can get you an advantage.

Very different.

But, on the flip side, sports will get you in good shape, give you the adrenaline rush, build a never quit attitude, and so on. Although not necessarily a requirement to learn budo, doing some form of sports (especially in one's younger years) has shown to develop important attributes to one's personality, body and life achievement.

Posted on: 2008/6/12 1:30
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Darren Dumas

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Re: Can Budo gain any advantages from "sport"?
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Quote:

Darren wrote:
Budo is the art. Bujutsu is the brush strokes, the techniques. Budo supercedes bujutsu because it is the "big picture".

Darren,
How can you justify making the above assertion? I have read lots of definitions and justifications (some good, some not). The deal breaker here is that I don't think you have any basis for comparison and so your just proliferating someone else's opinion that was most likely based on something Don Draeger wrote. He did have a basis for comparison and still there are some better imformed people than I who disagree strongly with some of his definitions.

Posted on: 2008/6/12 3:46
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Re: Can Budo gain any advantages from "sport"?
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There are lots of "sport fighters" who do very well in "real combat". Wrestlers, judoka, boxers.
The premise that because they compete, they are less capable....is flawed to say the least IMO.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToEri769Opc&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH5aq6ik9PQ

Posted on: 2008/6/12 6:28
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Re: Can Budo gain any advantages from "sport"?
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What is really to be measured? Martial art/Sport Fighting skill, or the willpower of the individual? I imagine every budo system has its share of bad apples, it has been argued on here many times. Maybe its the direction and not the training that is the conflict.

For instance, did BJJ win last months UFC competition against wrestling/MMA? OR did BJ Penn beat Shawn Sherk? And since Sherk lost, does that mean that nobody who trains like him could defeat BJ in competition?

In my personal opinion (and more directly related to the thread)...

Sport conditioning is a means to get anybody into the best shape of their lives. Its a venue I suggest to enjoy life that much more--like activities that benefit from having stellar cardio and stamina, or physically demanding work. whatever...there are many good reasons.Even non martial-artists or atheletes will benefit greatly from it. DO I personally want to pay for it as part of my budo training? No thanks.

Prior to training in the bujinkan I had trained in a few schools where conditioning took over the 1/3 to nearly half of each class time. My Shidoshi in the beginning made it clear that conditioning was our personal responsibility on our own time.

I(again personally) want budo taijutsu training from a shidoshi or my seniors in the Bujinkan,i.e. going to the source. If I wanna be in the shape of a boxer or wrestler, I will go to the source there as well. Or better still, a personal trainer. I don't ask my History professor to tutor in Algebra either.

The questions I am trying to develop here are these: Is it your Shidoshi or Bujinkan senior's job to put you in peak athletic condition as well as teach you anything other than the budo? Are we not to be solely accountable for the shape we are in? Are we respecting the gift of training with our teachers enough, or do we need to ask that much more of them for our dollar?

Posted on: 2008/6/12 7:25
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Re: Can Budo gain any advantages from "sport"?
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Chris, I have always also objected to activities in class that should be the individuals responsibility. It is their responsibility to get their body in the best condition they can. It is their responsibility to stretch and strengthen the joints while improving their flexibility. I make that clear to all those who train with me. My original question was aimed at the valuable information sports practicioners have learned about the human body. What helps it grow stronger, what causes it to fail, in short how to train it without breaking it. That information I feel can be very valuable to us. It can help us avoid traps in our own training even though we have no need, IMO, to be in the incredible physical condition that top athletes must maintain. To be in good physical shape is a health issue and so advantageous, it is not the requirement to be able to do Budo. (again in my opinion)

Posted on: 2008/6/12 12:11
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Re: Can Budo gain any advantages from "sport"?
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Quote:

petelohstroh wrote:
Quote:

Darren wrote:
Budo is the art. Bujutsu is the brush strokes, the techniques. Budo supercedes bujutsu because it is the "big picture".

Darren,
How can you justify making the above assertion? I have read lots of definitions and justifications (some good, some not). The deal breaker here is that I don't think you have any basis for comparison and so your just proliferating someone else's opinion that was most likely based on something Don Draeger wrote. He did have a basis for comparison and still there are some better imformed people than I who disagree strongly with some of his definitions.


Pete,

I'm not proliferating anybody's opinion but my own. If that doesn't jive with yours, that's fine too. I'm not really looking to argue semantics, but I do think that anything with 'jutsu' is simply a technical body of knowledge. Terms like 'budo' are more broad in scope than the intirety of the various 'jutsu' they may incompass.

To say one is better than the other is not my point. That would be like saying the sport of baseball is somehow better or more advanced than the act of playing baseball. To me, that's just not comparable.

Again, that's just my opinion - limited by my own understanding, of course. Feel free to educate me if you have a different understanding. I'm always open...

Posted on: 2008/6/12 13:29
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Re: Can Budo gain any advantages from "sport"?
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Quote:

Papa-san wrote:
My question is that doing Budo, can we learn nothing from the sport practicioners' experience?


I would say yes we can learn from sports in the same way that is for many other things too. I think the best discussion of this was written by Miyamoto Musashi in the Gorin no Sho.

I’ve heard something like be careful of people who only have one book (in terms of religious and political fanaticism). In the same way I think it would be extremely dangerous to only have one store of knowledge (in this case budo). A broad and questing mind, a variety of interests and a diverse range of knowledge is important.

I often look at Hatsumi-sensei’s new books and I think a lot of people are confused by them because they introduce so many ideas from history, language, literature, etc. Most people write a book to answer questions but I feel once you read one of Hatsumi sensei’s books you have to then read at least twenty to a hundred other books, so for the most part they are a pointer to hours of your own research. In the same way I view his lessons more as an advanced lecture than a lesson in budo because they don’t provide many answers. Once you do one of his classes you need at least twenty to a hundred hours of training and research to understand.

Didn’t Musashi say something like “from one thing you can understand ten thousand things”? In the reverse I also believe from ten thousand things you can also understand one thing.


Posted on: 2008/6/12 15:30
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Hehehe...
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I am confused what it is this thread concerns...

Are you referring to sparring? Ring-age? Fitness? Injury? Age in general? Or the similarities in sports to budo'???

By the way I will be 42 years old in 5 months...

Posted on: 2008/6/12 16:21
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