Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Socialize
 

Recent Topics
Topic Replies Last Post
Wedding gift... can someone help me to translate it? 6 2018/6/30 20:50
Barga18
Aomori-Ken 0 2018/6/19 10:27
hanzo-tou
Certificates 0 2018/5/8 4:34
schistkicker
Home Project: Shadowbox 3 2018/4/25 21:44
roufus
Ichiba 0 2018/2/21 1:18
Dpinga

Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



(1) 2 »


Kata training compared to other X-kans
Just Passing Through
Joined:
2008/7/22 21:16
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 4
Offline
Hi everyone,

Having been only in the Bujinkan for a short time, I assumed that most classical martial arts used kata training the way I have been taught so far, that is, to learn ways of applying it to other scenarios. I was quite surprised when I was able to view the Genbukan Shodan dvd here http://www.mininova.org/tor/1595902

The kata seem more rigid and tend to lack the flow that I have been taught.

Is this the way that Hatsumi Sensei used to teach, and hence why Tanemura teaches that way now?
I ask this because he was a long time student of his. Any ideas as to why we moved on are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Darren

Posted on: 2008/7/22 21:25
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kata training compared to other X-kans
Village Old Timer
Joined:
2004/12/21 19:52
From Dayton, Ohio
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 884
Offline
Any questions about the Genbukan would best be asked of them.

If you as did Soke teach rigid adherence to specific movement of the Kata - I don't believe so. That is a question for the old timers.

I am speculating here when I say that perhaps it is Soke's lack of strict adherence to Kata that makes many people feel we should be much stricter - and therefore why they leave the Bujinkan. Look back on many of the arguments on this chat forum to see how people disagree on when to allow more freedom in training.

However; when you are teaching Kyu rank students, there must be an initial adherence to form in order to train certain movements. Once you have internalized it you can start to play with the movements to discover the strengths and weaknesses in the kata and basic movements. When you have learned more, you are supposed to throw away the kata and just move naturallly. This is the concept of Shu-Ha-Ri. Soke is in the Ri, most of us remain late in the shu, working on the Ha.

Marty

Posted on: 2008/7/23 0:21
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kata training compared to other X-kans
Cant Stay Offline
Joined:
2003/6/13 23:29
From Pennsylvania, USA
Group:
村民 :: Villager
議長 :: Mod
師導士会 :: Shidoshikai
Posts: 1834
Offline
Many people don't understand the purpose of "kata" and often think that memorizing many kata give them expertise. That is a big mistake, it only makes them a kata collector. What kata are for is to teach principles. Dr. Hatsumi has continued to emphasize movement and feeling over the rigid repetition of a form. This is an art it is not set in concrete. The ability to adapt to the situation as it presents itself is a critical necessity. I happen to think that those who insist on staying with the kata never will understand our art. Build your foundation via the basics, but at some time you will need to go past those basics if you are ever going to build your structure. The art is only based on the basics, it goes way beyond them.

Posted on: 2008/7/23 6:15
_________________
Ed Martin aka Papa-san
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kata training compared to other X-kans
Permanent Village Fixture
Joined:
2003/2/12 6:15
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 311
Offline
It is a matter of how individuals choose to express the same material. Due to different views on what should be the most important point results in these different expressions. Which one is better is a totally different conversation in itself.

By the way the link doesn't work.

Posted on: 2008/7/23 12:48
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kata training compared to other X-kans
Just Passing Through
Joined:
2008/7/22 21:16
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 4
Offline
Hi,

Thanks for the replies, I understand about different expressions of the same material. However maybe one of the old timers can give me a more direct answer, by that I mean was Hatsumi Soke teaching like this when Tanemura was a member of his group. Or did he move to this method because of his advanced skills?

Sorry, I put the wrong link on, here it is http://www.mininova.org/tor/1623288

If not you can just use google or isohunt to find it.

Thanks for the input so far, I have much to learn.

Posted on: 2008/7/23 14:27
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kata training compared to other X-kans
Permanent Village Fixture
Joined:
2003/2/12 6:15
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 311
Offline
Ok I found it. It would be great if you could seed it. All the links I have found after searching contains no seeders.

Posted on: 2008/7/23 20:22
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kata training compared to other X-kans
Cant Stay Offline
Joined:
2003/6/13 23:29
From Pennsylvania, USA
Group:
村民 :: Villager
議長 :: Mod
師導士会 :: Shidoshikai
Posts: 1834
Offline
Like there is a flow to technique and movement if it is ever to be useful, there is a flow to one's training. It is a natural progression to make your movement more effective and efficient as you improve. I think this is what Dr Hatsumi continues to do, he gets better and better each year. It would be a mistake to think he doesn't apply that knowledge to his instruction. Tanemura departed more then 20 years ago, he never saw the new things Sensei is teaching or the way he is teaching it, he never experienced the improvements. That was his loss. It is also my opinion that he has a personality that will not recognize this need to continue growing. Sure in the very beginning Dr. Hatsumi did bigger movements and had to strike harder, but now he accomplishes more with a whole lot less effort. Shouldn't we benefit from his experience?

Posted on: 2008/7/23 22:36
_________________
Ed Martin aka Papa-san
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kata training compared to other X-kans
Just Passing Through
Joined:
2008/7/22 21:16
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 4
Offline
Thanks to everyone so far for the great information. For JWills 79 I found a better link for what your after, I overlooked it myself at first but its a better bet than the last http://www.mininova.org/tor/1625550

Papa-San, I fully understand the point you are making, however the question still stands, did Sensei teach in this manner prior to Tanemura leaving.

Sorry to sound so repetitive, but I have been told so many times why we train the way we do and I love it. I am interested in the history around the way we used to train and the way we do now.

Thanks again

Posted on: 2008/7/24 1:45
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Kata training compared to other X-kans
Permanent Village Fixture
Joined:
2003/2/12 6:15
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 311
Offline
I believe so.

Posted on: 2008/7/24 8:32
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Hehehe...
Permanent Village Fixture
Joined:
2003/5/28 6:46
From Dallas, TX
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 401
Offline
I have not been able to download that link you posted, so it is difficult to see what you are referring to.

I have had this discussion before with students in the Genbukan organization, and one belief is that Mr. Tanemura was heavily influenced by his training as a youth, even before training with Hatsumi Sensei... He preferred the more 'rigid' movement of his previous training rather than the more 'natural' movement of the Bujinkan.

It is my understanding and belief that Hatsumi Sensei emulates Takamatsu Sensei's 'natural' movement that he learned directly from training with him. Compare your video of the Genbukan with the video of Takamatsu Sensei's film that Hatsumi Sensei has made available in the Quest series.

If you go to the 'Video's of Hatsumi Sensei' section on the main page here on Kutaki, You will find a thread I started with videos of Hatsumi Sensei on Youtube. There are a number of video links there that are examples of training in the 1970's... Some even show Mr. Tanemura training with Hatsumi Sensei's group.

Posted on: 2008/7/24 8:53
_________________
"SHUT UP AND TRAIN!!!" Hatsumi So'Ke 87' when asked what to do about politics in the Bujinkan. Shido'shi James Garcia (Mikey, Slimey Jaime, Hentai Jaime and the Rat)
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer



(1) 2 »




[Advanced Search]


Today's Sponsor