Login
Username:

Password:

Remember me



Lost Password?

Register now!
Socialize
 


Browsing this Thread:   1 Anonymous Users



(1) 2 3 4 »


Takamatsu's successor
Honorary Villager
Joined:
2009/10/4 6:04
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 31
Offline
I understand that Soke is the current head of the Bujinkan, and that his prowess in Budo is commendable and his status as the head of this school of Ninjutsu is justified for a variety of good reasons. As a member of the Bujinkan, I also understand that my bringing this question to light might cause some backlash among its members. In addition, the combat or survival applications of this art cannot be deemed ineffective because of convolution. After all, the unknown is part of what makes this art so special. I want to make it clear that I am not posting this to ruin the merit of the Bujinkan. I think the Bujinkan is a wonderful thing and regardless of history it has plenty of merit by its own right. I am not claiming anything here, only questioning (addressing claims which I have come across). I am hoping that my concern can bring forth some information that can introduce greater historical clarity to my training. In particular, I am hoping to hear from some Shihan or others who have been to Japan/studied the history of Ninjutsu thoroughly. My journey with the Bujinkan has just begun. I am a Shodan, and I feel that I have a responsibility to dig deeper into this art, which is why I bring these concerns to you today. I sincerely hope no offense is taken to the following words, as I am only putting them out here in the hope to get some insight from the community about something which remains somewhat elusive to me. Some of you may tell me to go read other threads, or may dismiss this subject as one that has already been disputed. But so far I have not found any solution other than indifference or blind faith regarding the following statements I have heard from other reputable martial artists...

Reportedly, Takamatu's real succesor was a man name Ueno Takashi. According to the claim, this happened long before Hatsumi heard of Takamatsu. Later Hatsumi traveled to train with Takamatsu and was sent to Ueno's dojo. Shortly after, Ueno kicked Hatsumi out of his school (i dont know why and if its true would like to know). Hatsumi at this point went back to pay for private lessons with Takamatsu. After Takamatsu died, Hatsumi claimed that Takamatsu removed Ueno as his successor and placed Hatsumi there, a claim never concretely confirmed by Takamatsu and not recognized by anyone other than Hatsumi and his students at the time. According to this claim, Ueno later passed his Sokeship to Kaminaga Shimegi who teaches the arts today. Lineage wise and scroll wise Kaminaga Shimegi holds the Sokeships, and Hatsumi scrolls remain unverified.

Can anyone help me understand this? Is this claim simply a vast generalization or a feeble attempt to shoot down the Bujinkan, or is this claim based in fact? Are the scrolls verified, or should we just trust Soke by his word? He is our teacher, so shouldn't we ask these questions of him? This is NOT blasphemy. Questioning is one of the foundations of learning. None of us can deny that Soke is a superb human being with wonderful grace in Budo Taijutsu, and for that matter, life. But that is not what is in dispute here. I would just like to have a better understanding of the facts behind these historical claims. I think its important, especially as the Bujinkan continues to evolve, for us as students to analyze everything and from all angles (even those which are flawed). After all, is this not what enabled the clans of old to survive? Certainly part of life is letting go, but another is holding on.

I appreciate you reading through this along with any insight that anyone can bring to the table. At any rate, I love this art and it will always be a part of my life.

Domo arigato

Posted on: 2012/9/19 17:01
_________________
Chi – Earth Sui – Water Ka - Fire Fu - Wind Ku Void
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Takamatsu's successor
Cant Stay Offline
Joined:
2003/6/13 23:29
From Pennsylvania, USA
Group:
村民 :: Villager
議長 :: Mod
師導士会 :: Shidoshikai
Posts: 1834
Offline
I have spoken with Sensei many times and there is no doubt that he had a special relationship with Takamatsu sama. As to those claims, I can't respond with any personal knowledge but will say I believe Kasim, who has studied the history extensively may be able to shed light on the area. I do know that he was there last DKMS when Dr Hatsumi brought out all those acient scrolls and showed them to us.
Sorry I can't be more helpful on this, all I can say is that I do completely trust what Dr Hatsumi has told us and saw many pictures and the video of his training with Takamatsu sama.

Posted on: 2012/9/19 22:59
_________________
Ed Martin aka Papa-san
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Takamatsu's successor
Honorary Villager
Joined:
2009/10/4 6:04
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 31
Offline
Thanks for the response Papa-San.

Posted on: 2012/9/20 1:53
_________________
Chi – Earth Sui – Water Ka - Fire Fu - Wind Ku Void
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Takamatsu's successor
Village Old Timer
Joined:
2004/12/21 19:52
From Dayton, Ohio
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 884
Offline
In general, if you have to write a longer appology in advance for asking a question, than the question is, it is probably not worth asking.

Because this "Ninja Stuff" was not a classical Martial Art, the history is always a bit mushy.

My "reliable Sourse" told us that Hatsumi started with Ueno who was not given sokeship but did some training with Takamatsu Sensei. It was Ueno who told him if he really wanted to learn about Ninjutsu, he would have to go to train wiht Takamatsu.

My understanding is that there were actually 3 people given Sokeship of what became our art. The first two died before passin on the art or training much of anyone else in it.

If this makes you feel better about what you are studying, then great! Pre and post war Japanese History is all very questionable and all in the eye of the beholder. You can say much of the same about American History for the Same period. What spies really do and what is written down should never be completely believed. The much bigger questino is Why do You Train? If an unverifiable histoy is imporatant to you, do your own research

The study of Bujinkan arts are endless as they are presented by Hatsumi Sensei. That is enough for me!

Marty

Posted on: 2012/9/21 16:54
_________________
"We train to live".
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Takamatsu's successor
Village Old Timer
Joined:
2004/8/3 11:03
Group:
村民 :: Villager
議長 :: Mod
Posts: 565
Offline
You write, "Reportedly,..." and then proceed with a version of history most people aren't familiar with. My question is, where is this reported?


Posted on: 2012/9/22 9:47
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Takamatsu's successor
Village Old Timer
Joined:
2004/12/21 19:52
From Dayton, Ohio
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 884
Offline
You know, it is his "reliable Source". Just like mine, ful of prejudice and half truths. We have to decide who to listen to and who to say they may not have the complete truth. So many of us grew up thinking one move had a "Wind feeling" only to go to Japan and say something like that and have them look at us cross eyed. We quickly had to learn that this is not the way of this world. It really doesn't negate the value of the Godai as a training tool. It is just not part of daily training in Japan usually. We have to learn that styles change and things we think are so very fundimental to our training and pay attention to the people who have the experince and are close to the source.

Marty

Posted on: 2012/9/24 2:44
_________________
"We train to live".
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Takamatsu's successor
Active Kutakian
Joined:
2011/1/8 0:49
From Boston, MA
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 140
Offline
The idea of Takamatsu sensei's passing on sokeship to 3 possible recipients to me sounds very practical and ninja-like to me, for what it's worth (which, as a fellow shodan, is not much ; ).

The sokeship at that level would, to my thinking, be primarily a matter of paperwork.

Over time, one of the three would in one way or another prove to be the most sound and would then receive the true 'spiritual' transmission.

What does that really mean? I don't know, but if you dig deeper and really research what Hatsumi Soke has left behind already as his densho, interesting things can come to light, if never quite directly. A thorough, repeated reading of his old 'Sanmyaku' newsletter, end-to-end, would be a great place to start. Meeting and training with Hatsumi Soke in Japan and simply hearing the sound of his voice is another experience that can change answer a lot of questions that can be hard to put into words. Perhaps it's just me, but I have never heard a voice in my life that commands a gut-level respect in the way his does! And then there's an old video of him, very young, doing an interview with a woman on Japanese television quietly discussing Ninjutsu. She is a tiny, delicate bird in his hand, and he is a gentleman in every moment to the core of his being and the interview, to me at least, is just a joy to behold.

Speaking of hands, Rumiko Hayes mentions something in a video taped interview somewhere about Hatsumi Soke's hands that she found very interesting when she first met him, and that I find very interesting as well. I can't say why, exactly, save to be struck by the unexpectedness of her observation. Hatsumi Soke is a very unique person, and I'm not so sure there are really many of those out there!

The question you pose is certainly a fair one with all the seemingly conflicting information that appears now and then, but I don't think you'll get any answers here that will satisfy you. Just keep doing your own research, as honestly as you can, and you'll come to your own conclusion. Pinning down a ninja is no easy task.

Posted on: 2012/9/24 15:15
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Takamatsu's successor
Active Kutakian
Joined:
2011/1/8 0:49
From Boston, MA
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 140
Offline
Also study the people around Hatsumi Soke, in Japan but also all over the world and all through time. He has affected a lot of people very deeply, and a lot of these people were already very accomplished in their own right, be it as martial artists or otherwise. This in large part is what I really got a feel for in reading Sanmyaku. Of course I can only read it in English at present, so I am still at the mercy of the interpreter at the time, but even if the translation I read a while back was cursory (I don't think it was, but just saying) there is still a lot there to ponder.

Read any translations of his more recent books and you'll get a clear feeling for how much trouble people have with really trying to, again, 'pin down' what he is saying.

But then you meet the man, and witness the affect he has had on some very sharp, capable and even critical folks, and you may begin to feel that whatever he is saying (and doing, of course) is something very well worth studying deeply yourself.

Sorry, it's late and I get to babbling!

Posted on: 2012/9/24 15:49
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Takamatsu's successor
Active Kutakian
Joined:
2010/9/5 23:36
From Savannah, GA
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 145
Offline
Hatsumi claims that he inherited the title of Soke for the 9 schools which make up the Bujinkan. Perhaps Takamatsu granted Sokeship of other arts to other individuals? I've not researched Takamatsu's history extensively but perhaps this could be the case which leads to the confusion of who is Soke of which Ryu?

Anyone who is not fluent in Japanese language and thoroughly educated in Japanese history probably has no chance of answering your questions to your satisfaction, regardless of their rank or how long they have studied Bujinkan.

I recommend contacting Shihan Mark Lithgow, who I believe is probably the most knowledgeable non-Japanese member of the Bujinkan. Last year, when he came to the US for a seminar I brought 1 katana and 1 tachi (which my friends grandmother found in her attic after her WW2 veteran husband passed away) for him to appraise/translate, which he gladly did as a courtesy for me. He was able to dig extensively into his research material and sword-smith contacts in Japan to translate the inscriptions and reveal that 1 sword was a WW2 standard issue weapon to Japanese Soldiers, while the other was approximately 250 years old but was unfortunately only a replica tachi used in ceremonial display. Had it been a combat tachi it would have been valued over $100,000.00, but as a replica its value is around the $1000 range, not that my friend wanted to sell it but it was certainly exciting waiting to find out!

I was blown away that he was able to give me all this information, he even brought his old textbooks of Japanese kanji and showed me the breakdown of the characters and the name of the sword-smith and which era the sword came from.

Apologies for chiming in on this topic as I am not the subject matter expert you seek, but I'd love to hear what you find out.

Posted on: 2012/9/25 14:17
_________________
"The most terrible job in warfare is to be a second lieutenant leading a platoon when you are on the battlefield."
~Dwight D. Eisenhower
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer


Re: Takamatsu's successor
Honorary Villager
Joined:
2009/10/4 6:04
Group:
村民 :: Villager
Posts: 31
Offline
Wow thanks for the responses. Also, the phrasing "a trusted source" was a mistake on my part, and I should have mentioned it as "a good friend" instead.
Anyway, just digging deeper and looking for advice/insight which so far i've gotten so thank you.

Quote:
In general, if you have to write a longer appology in advance for asking a question, than the question is, it is probably not worth asking.

I do not think sensitive topics aren't worth exploring. Regardless, thanks for the advice.

Posted on: 2012/9/27 13:57
_________________
Chi – Earth Sui – Water Ka - Fire Fu - Wind Ku Void
Transfer the post to other applications Transfer



(1) 2 3 4 »




[Advanced Search]


Today's Sponsor